Irish War of Independence centenary

[AULD_SWEAT]

Queenstown is Cobh now isn't it?

Yes. Just as Kingstown is now Dun Lo... Dun La.... Dun Le... Something else.

 

[Mike Barton]

Queenstown is Cobh now isn't it?

Yes, and Kingstown is now Dun Laoghaire and Queen's County is Laois and King's County is Offaly. Beyond that (and a lot of street names) I don't think very much else changed names after Independence, although there are an awful lot of smaller towns whose names, linked as they are to British landlords and generals not all of whom have very savoury reputations, that might have been changed but weren't.

ETA, I am wrong, quite a few place names were changed, although a lot of them were since changed back

 

[adouglasmhor]

Yes. Just as Kingstown is now Dun Lo... Dun La.... Dun Le... Something else.

Kingsbridge is Heuston I know that one.

I noticed that Queen Street in Dublin they used a very different translation for Queen than in Scottish Gaelic, (Sràid na Banrighinn) though the inlaws got the Scottish version straight away when I said it.

 

[Gary Cooper]

Queenstown is Cobh now isn't it?

Yes. Kingstown was Dun Laoighre.

As an aside there is a townland called Kingstown in Co. Tipperary. Mapping Our Anzacs has about 20 men from that townland fighting in WW1.

 

[Gary Cooper]

Yes, and Kingstown is now Dun Laoghaire and Queen's County is Laois and King's County is Offaly. Beyond that (and a lot of street names) I don't think very much else changed names after Independence, although there are an awful lot of smaller towns whose names, linked as they are to British landlords and generals not all of whom have very savoury reputations, that might have been changed but weren't.

ETA, I am wrong, quite a few place names were changed, although a lot of them were since changed back

Portlaoise was Maryborough in them days. There was an ancient 6" to the Mile map in Portlaoise Prison in 1997 which still named the town as Maryborough. Mary was the Queen after whom Queen's County was named, King's was named after Philip II and also had a Philipstown, now called Daingean. Birr in Co. Offaly was called Parsonstown until 1922. The Parsons family were the Earls of Rosse, local landlords and astronomy enthusiasts.

 

[par avion]

At the first Dáil Cabinet meeting since his return from the US, de Valera proposed large scale open warfare type military activities. He withdrew the proposal due to opposition from other members of the government.

So Emmet Dalton, who had actual military experience told him to wind his neck in then.

 

[par avion]

ETA, I am wrong, quite a few place names were changed, although a lot of them were since changed back

I wonder why they were changed back?

 

[Gary Cooper]

22 January 1921​

Three off-duty RIC men were ambushed after leaving Leonard’s pub in Corcaghan, Co. Monaghan. The alarm was raised when they failed to return to barracks at 10 pm. A search party quickly found the three men and returned to barracks for reinforcements. When they returned to the ambush site, one man was missing.

The two dead were;

Constable Robert Hegarty, a policeman’s son from Cork. Hegarty was 18 and had joined the RIC in September after being discharged from the army.

Constable Frederick Taylor, age 24 and from Plymouth. Taylor had two months RIC service.

Constable Sidney Clarke was found alive the following morning but he died from his wounds on 30th January. After the search party found the ambush site Clarke had crawled to a nearby building.

In Ballinalee, Co. Longford, two young men were shot as informers. William Charters, a Protestant, aged 27, had allegedly reported two members of a Sinn Féin Land Court which had found against his brother in a land dispute. The Charters family had already lost two sons; one drowned on the Titanic and another killed in the war. William was abducted about 3 am, shot and dumped in a lake.

William Elliott, a Protestant, aged 22, was accused of being a member of the UVF. He was taken from his home at 2 am and shot dead in a nearby bog.

The local Protestants took these events to be the start of a bit of ethnic cleansing and were no doubt reassured by Sean McEoin’s proclamation that they’d be safe if they minded their own business.

Michael Dwyer a 23 year old ex-serviceman was shot as a spy near Bandon, Co. Cork.

Auxiliaries in Co. Galway, in reprisal for the Kilroe ambush, shot three men dead in the area in separate incidents.

William Walsh, aged 30, was taken from his home at Claran in the morning and shot in the head outside his door.

Michael Hoade, a 30 year old shopkeeper at Caherlistrane, was shot while trying to escape. The Auxiliaries kindly brought the body back to his sister.

James Kirwin, aged 26, was shot dead when the Auxiliaries came to arrest him in a field where he was working. Kirwin fled when he saw the police patrol.

All three were suspected IRA members and were killed by a patrol led by DI J. McGlynn.

 

[Gary Cooper]

So Emmet Dalton, who had actual military experience told him to wind his neck in then.

It was a meeting of the Government of which Dalton was not a member. The opposition to De Valera's proposal would have been led by Collins.

At this time Emmet Dalton MC would have been a mid-ranking officer in the Dublin Brigade.

I wonder why they were changed back?

Probably because people continued using the names they had always used.

 

[Mike Barton]

22 January 1921​

Three off-duty RIC men were ambushed after leaving Leonard’s pub in Corcaghan, Co. Monaghan. The alarm was raised when they failed to return to barracks at 10 pm. A search party quickly found the three men and returned to barracks for reinforcements. When they returned to the ambush site, one man was missing.

The two dead were;

Constable Robert Hegarty, a policeman’s son from Cork. Hegarty was 18 and had joined the RIC in September after being discharged from the army.

Constable Frederick Taylor, age 24 and from Plymouth. Taylor had two months RIC service.

Constable Sidney Clarke was found alive the following morning but he died from his wounds on 30th January. After the search party found the ambush site Clarke had crawled to a nearby building.

In Ballinalee, Co. Longford, two young men were shot as informers. William Charters, a Protestant, aged 27, had allegedly reported two members of a Sinn Féin Land Court which had found against his brother in a land dispute. The Charters family had already lost two sons; one drowned on the Titanic and another killed in the war. William was abducted about 3 am, shot and dumped in a lake.

William Elliott, a Protestant, aged 22, was accused of being a member of the UVF. He was taken from his home at 2 am and shot dead in a nearby bog.

The local Protestants took these events to be the start of a bit of ethnic cleansing and were no doubt reassured by Sean McEoin’s proclamation that they’d be safe if they minded their own business.

Michael Dwyer a 23 year old ex-serviceman was shot as a spy near Bandon, Co. Cork.

Auxiliaries in Co. Galway, in reprisal for the Kilroe ambush, shot three men dead in the area in separate incidents.

William Walsh, aged 30, was taken from his home at Claran in the morning and shot in the head outside his door.

Michael Hoade, a 30 year old shopkeeper at Caherlistrane, was shot while trying to escape. The Auxiliaries kindly brought the body back to his sister.

James Kirwin, aged 26, was shot dead when the Auxiliaries came to arrest him in a field where he was working. Kirwin fled when he saw the police patrol.

All three were suspected IRA members and were killed by a patrol led by DI J. McGlynn.

My goodness, there's a TV mini series to be made of the Charters family's bad luck in that 10 years. A bit of research turns up that there is still a Charters family farming in Ballinalee, so it's good to see they made it through.

 

[Mike Barton]

I wonder why they were changed back?

I imagine because the Irish-language names chosen for them didn't exactly trip off the tongue. Charleville became Rath Luiric, Kells became Ceannanus Mór (although I am not sure what the problem with Kells was given its association with the magnificent Gospels), Navan became An Uaimh (again, I wonder why there was a problem with Navan), they changed back. Bagenalstown, and I can quite see why the new state would want to change it, became and remains Muine Bheag, although many people still use the old name. New names that stuck were places like Bunclody (Newtownbarry) and Ballydesmond (Kingswilliamstown, ooh er) presumably because the new names were gentler on the ear.

 

[adouglasmhor]

I imagine because the Irish-language names chosen for them didn't exactly trip off the tongue. Charleville became Rath Luiric, Kells became Ceannanus Mór (although I am not sure what the problem with Kells was given its association with the magnificent Gospels), Navan became An Uaimh (again, I wonder why there was a problem with Navan), they changed back. Bagenalstown, and I can quite see why the new state would want to change it, became and remains Muine Bheag, although many people still use the old name. New names that stuck were places like Bunclody (Newtownbarry) and Ballydesmond (Kingswilliamstown, ooh er) presumably because the new names were gentler on the ear.

I never get why Dublin which has an Irish root (Black Pool) became 'Baile Atha Cliath' the place with the wattle ford, surely the water would have been there before the ford was made?

 

[irlsgt]

I never get why Dublin which has an Irish root (Black Pool) became 'Baile Atha Cliath' the place with the wattle ford, surely the water would have been there before the ford was made?

wattles were used on the banks of the River Liffey

remember Dubhlinn came from the Vikings

 

[irlsgt]

I imagine because the Irish-language names chosen for them didn't exactly trip off the tongue. Charleville became Rath Luiric, Kells became Ceannanus Mór (although I am not sure what the problem with Kells was given its association with the magnificent Gospels), Navan became An Uaimh (again, I wonder why there was a problem with Navan), they changed back. Bagenalstown, and I can quite see why the new state would want to change it, became and remains Muine Bheag, although many people still use the old name. New names that stuck were places like Bunclody (Newtownbarry) and Ballydesmond (Kingswilliamstown, ooh er) presumably because the new names were gentler on the ear.

In some cases the original name was changed (sometimes multiple times). So sometimes the name is a translation of one of the older names

 

[Gary Cooper]

23 January 1921​

Fifteen ‘A’ Specials based in Newtownbutler, Co. Fermanagh decided that they’d go to Clones in Co. Monaghan and break into a public house owned by John O’Reilly for an after duty pint. The RIC in Clones were alerted and 12 RIC men went to investigate. When challenged the Specials opened fire. In the ensuing gun battle, Special Constable James McCullagh (or McCullough) from Belfast was killed and another, Special Constable Archdale from Enniskillen, was seriously wounded. The RIC arrested the remaining Specials and escorted them back to Newtownbutler. Oddly none of them was shot trying to escape. Subsequently, six of the Specials were convicted and sentenced to prison, although it is unclear if they served their sentences. You don’t get quality Counter Insurgency Warfare like that these days.

The Flying Column of the 3rd (West) Cork Brigade, under Tom Barry, entered Bandon in three sections to ambush a military curfew patrol. The patrol did not show that night and as the IRA withdrew, one man was killed by a burst of MG fire from the military post. The dead man was Dan O'Reilly from Kilbrittain.

IRA volunteers from the Dunfanaghy, Falcarragh and Cresslough companies attacked the RIC barracks in Dunfanaghy, Co. Donegal. There were no casualties on either side.

Patrick Ray, an ex-serviceman from Passage West, Co. Cork, was executed as an informer. He was married with four children. Ray suffered from shell shock and disappeared on 21 January after collecting his pension in Cork. His fate was not confirmed until January 1922.

Thomas Bradfield a Protestant farmer from Bandon was shot as an informer by the IRA. Another Thomas Bradfield, a cousin of this one will meet the same fate the following week. The Cork area seems to be awash with informers.

Richard Morey was killed in his home by a shot fired by a Hampshire Regiment patrol clearing the streets after curfew.

Sergeant John Kemp RIC died of a leg wound inflicted by a grenade thrown at him on 14 January. Kemp was 42 with 22 years service in the police. Originally from Cavan, he died in Armagh where he was stationed.

Constable Timothy Keane also died of septicaemia from an accidentally inflicted gunshot wound to the knee. He had been shot by Constable Creed on 24 November. Keane was from Kerry.

 

[Mike Barton]

23 January 1921​

Thomas Bradfield a Protestant farmer from Bandon was shot as an informer by the IRA. Another Thomas Bradfield, a cousin of this one will meet the same fate the following week. The Cork area seems to be awash with informers.

Or perhaps just too many protestants and ex-servicemen in Bandon for Tom Barry's liking. I have long since mislaid my Guerrilla Days in Ireland but doesn't Barry have many's the bitter word to say about that town? Describing Bandon as a hotbed of loyalism and West Britonism (something which to a modern ear seems bizarre), he appears to have had a special dislike for it, in no way linked to his own loyal service and membership of the town's ex-serviceman's association I am sure. If Bandon wasn't the town in question I am sure others will correct me.

 

[Gary Cooper]

24 January 1921​

The Poynstown Ambush took place in Tipperary near a village called Glengoole. A patrol of the Lincolnshire Regiment was involved and lost two men killed;

4792757 Sergeant Martin Brackenbury (above), age 26. He is buried in St. Margaret’s Churchyard, Thimbleby, Lincolnshire.

4793670 Private Harold Staves, age 21, buried All Saint’s Churchyard, Wellingore, Lincolnshire.

I might try and do a bit more on this ambush tonight. About 15 years ago I met a former Labour MP, Andrew McKinlay, and his wife Ruth. Andrew’s uncle Frank, a veteran of the Western Front, had been in this patrol, survived but a few years later ended up in a psychiatric institution where he spent the remainder of his life.

The RC Archbishop of Tuam, Dr Gilmartin, issued a letter saying that men who took part in recent ambushes "have broken the truce of God, they have incurred the guilt of murder"

Edited to add Brackenbury photo.

 

[Gary Cooper]

Or perhaps just too many protestants and ex-servicemen in Bandon for Tom Barry's liking. I have long since mislaid my Guerrilla Days in Ireland but doesn't Barry have many's the bitter word to say about that town? Describing Bandon as a hotbed of loyalism and West Britonism (something which to a modern ear seems bizarre), he appears to have had a special dislike for it, in no way linked to his own loyal service and membership of the town's ex-serviceman's association I am sure. If Bandon wasn't the town in question I am sure others will correct me.

Obviously my command of sarcasm is failing. The stories that the IRA made up to provide a justification for killing these people are frankly unbelievable. The two Bradfields were supposed to have mistaken IRA men for Auxiliaries and informed them of the names of local republicans. I doubt that anyone over the age of 10 in Ireland in 1921 was unaware what an Auxiliary looked like.

My mother in law's family had recently divided into Catholic and Protestant branches at that time. They were from Kinsale, not a million miles from Bandon. It must have been a fraught time for them.

 

[Gary Cooper]

I meant to post these a few days ago. From a French newspaper and referring to the searches in Dublin a few days before. Johnston, Mooney and O'Brien are bakers who still bake the freshest family bread.

 

[Mike Barton]

Obviously my command of sarcasm is failing. The stories that the IRA made up to provide a justification for killing these people are frankly unbelievable. The two Bradfields were supposed to have mistaken IRA men for Auxiliaries and informed them of the names of local republicans. I doubt that anyone over the age of 10 in Ireland in 1921 was unaware what an Auxiliary looked like.

My mother in law's family had recently divided into Catholic and Protestant branches at that time. They were from Kinsale, not a million miles from Bandon. It must have been a fraught time for them.

No Gary, rest assured the wry comments in your posts are always noted and appreciated.

Isn't there an incident in Barry's book where he is supposed to have visited a local loyalist in the guise of a British officer. The loyalist who is of course portrayed as a red-faced Colonel Blimp type then proceeds to spill the beans to Barry about all the local Fenian agitators in the area over a bottle of Scotch, before Barry reveals his true identity and the colonel blanches in horror. A fine yarn but hardly believable.

Unless of course, Barry is actually referring to the Bradfield killings and is attempting to justify his actions post facto.

ETA: I see from Peter Hart that another Bradfield is killed during the 1922 purge of West Cork that we alluded to a few weeks ago. The Bradfields were certainly staunch loyalists, whether they took any active role against the IRA we presumably can't know, but the family certainly seem to have made themselves unpopular.