Irish War of Independence centenary

Not all of the them

Next time anyone is at Liverpool Street Station, on the upper floor near to the McDonalds entrance (if it has not moved) is this memorial.



Field Marshall Sir Henry Wilson was shot dead by two IRA after returning from opening a seperate War Memorial at the Railway station, and there is a historical argument that is was directed by Collins et al rather than an "self-starter plot" (in today's terrorist language).

Both murderers were convicted and executed as criminals.
So, Enniskillen had a forerunner.
Murder, at its most foul.
 
And in true fashion we Brits failed to learn lessons.

The rest of the Easter Rising lot were banged up in Frongoch, just outside Bala.

Frongoch: university of the revolution - Independent.ie

Not that ever would occur again..... Camp Bucca and DAESH being but the latest in the long line of prisons being the University of Revolution Studies.
HMP The Maze
(I am a few days behind, so probably mentioned already !)
 
Don’t confuse the IRA of the 16-22 fight with the late 60s-94 version
Two different entities
Of note the Sinn Féin Office try to capitalise on their location in Dublin, Dubliners know what they are attempting to do. According to the local tour guide who may have cursed them when outside their office.
It is just possible that a brick went through that window on a Five Nations night long ago, when two brothers from de nort were making their way back on foot to a B&B nearby, after much stout...
 
Yep, immune to Luftwaffe attack a la phoenix park no doubt.
No base existed in the RoI that was out of range from the Luftwaffe.
To defend them you'd need to extend chain home coverage and supply fighter aircraft, crews, AAA and all the support facilities required - all of which would detracted from home defence.
If you're intent in supplying them with gear to resist invasion you can add tanks, trucks, AT weapons etc all of which were in short supply for us post Dunkirk.
I have heard an old Naval Commander in my town lecture on this.
He agrees the cost of setting up defences for Queenstown/Cobh and Galway in particular would have been prohibitive
 
I have heard an old Naval Commander in my town lecture on this.
He agrees the cost of setting up defences for Queenstown/Cobh and Galway in particular would have been prohibitive
Cork Harbour was already well defended with forts at Templebreedy, Camden, Carlisle and Spike Island. The significant cost would have been for AA defences. Similarly the other treaty Ports at Berehaven and Lough Swilly. I don't know about Galway though.
 
Cork Harbour was already well defended with forts at Templebreedy, Camden, Carlisle and Spike Island. The significant cost would have been for AA defences. Similarly the other treaty Ports at Berehaven and Lough Swilly. I don't know about Galway though.
What was the state of those forts ? By that I mean were they armed and provisioned with suitable stocks of ammunition ? If not, this has to be procured, people trained etc etc.
Imho, the RoI has to be in the war from 1939. Why ? To allow build up of her armed forces in the period of the so called phoney war. She has to buy arms from either the US ,France or the UK in that time and she's really not rolling in money. Once april 1940 comes around she's on the hind tit. The RN and RCN are having great problems in the Atlantic with the u boats, Irish shipping ( what there is of it ) is now target as well and her towns and cities. Is it worth it to the man in Tralee ? She's allied with a country she's fought a war of independence with, she's being attacked and the auguries for survival are not good.
In hindsight, had the IWI failed, the UK would have been left with acres of resentful countryside posing a COIN threat as well as defence problems for external attacks. Probably a good thing the Irish weren't involved as allies or as part of UK inc.
 
What was the state of those forts ? By that I mean were they armed and provisioned with suitable stocks of ammunition ? If not, this has to be procured, people trained etc etc.
Imho, the RoI has to be in the war from 1939. Why ? To allow build up of her armed forces in the period of the so called phoney war. She has to buy arms from either the US ,France or the UK in that time and she's really not rolling in money. Once april 1940 comes around she's on the hind tit. The RN and RCN are having great problems in the Atlantic with the u boats, Irish shipping ( what there is of it ) is now target as well and her towns and cities. Is it worth it to the man in Tralee ? She's allied with a country she's fought a war of independence with, she's being attacked and the auguries for survival are not good.
In hindsight, had the IWI failed, the UK would have been left with acres of resentful countryside posing a COIN threat as well as defence problems for external attacks. Probably a good thing the Irish weren't involved as allies or as part of UK inc.
Absolutely agree with all

The Treaty Ports (not all the ports) were quite well defended from sea but not so from land or air
 
What was the state of those forts ? By that I mean were they armed and provisioned with suitable stocks of ammunition ? If not, this has to be procured, people trained etc etc.
Imho, the RoI has to be in the war from 1939. Why ? To allow build up of her armed forces in the period of the so called phoney war. She has to buy arms from either the US ,France or the UK in that time and she's really not rolling in money. Once april 1940 comes around she's on the hind tit. The RN and RCN are having great problems in the Atlantic with the u boats, Irish shipping ( what there is of it ) is now target as well and her towns and cities. Is it worth it to the man in Tralee ? She's allied with a country she's fought a war of independence with, she's being attacked and the auguries for survival are not good.
In hindsight, had the IWI failed, the UK would have been left with acres of resentful countryside posing a COIN threat as well as defence problems for external attacks. Probably a good thing the Irish weren't involved as allies or as part of UK inc.
The ROI did not come into existence until 1949. But I was thinking more along the lines of Irish ports being used by British forces in WW2. The Treaty Ports had been retained by the UK after the withdrawal of British forces from the IFS. The ports were handed over to Free Stae forces in the summer and autumn of 1938 so I assume that they were in working condition and that the British Army or Royal Navy had the ammunition and personnel to man them.

The Irish army certainly manned the forts during the war and they were still habitable in the 1970s and 80s. The 6 inch guns in the battery at Fort Davis (Fort Carlisle) was fired as late as the 1960s and there existed a Coast Defence Artillery unit a decade later. The guns were in situ in 1985 and was still called Prince Rupert's Tower Battery. The 6 Inchers of the Lonehort battery are still in place on Bere Island. I visited there in 2013 and the shell hoists look as if they could be got working again with a shot of WD40. The battery originally also had a 9 inch gun but that was removed at the time of the handover.

It was terribly bad timing or terribly bad planning to hand over the Ports in 1938.
 
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overopensights

ADC
Book Reviewer
Or we could tell them that the 100 year experiment with "independence" has obviously been a failure and that they should rejoin the United Kingdom as soon as is practicable.

Then we can all forget about a bloody backstop.
It is instilled into their DNA and into their blood line at birth that they want F***K all to do with us, except trade. While they refer to the EU as 'our friends in Europe'
 
You really don't get it, do you? The Irish are irretrievably enjoined to the UK by virtue of language and geography, 800 years of conquest, hundreds of years of our manpower serving in your armies and fighting your wars for you and millions of people who built your roads, canals, factories, bridges...and the little matter of the 300,000 who served in your factories in WW 2 and the 50,000 men who never came home from the battlefields of WW 1 and many thousands more in the second one. As for Europe, we only consider ourselves European since 1973, because of the political and financial convenience of doing so to get us out of cycles of poverty, since mass emigration wasn't really doing it for us. The scum in the IRA represent a tiny portion of us, just like the Loyalist scum represent a tiny portion of you. We really aren't your enemy.
 
Some points you seem to have missed in your but the Germans could have won scenario:

The Luftwaffe wasn’t based in Britanny during the BoB, Guess why that was?

I wonder if the Luftwaffe suddenly starts buldiing airfields around Brest and moving lots of transport planes, bombers and long range fighters down To Brest, the British might say to themselves...’you know what watson? I think the Huns are up to something!

Radar didn’t stop at the line on the map, CH coverage extended well into France, and certainly covered ALL of the Channel coast... apparently the RAF though the enemy might use anywhere along it. Hello control? Yes, lots of Germans forming up over France and heading out into the West....

Guess why the Luftwaffe never thought.... you know what? We could all move down to Britanny and fly out into the Western Approches and in through the UKs back door? I wonder if that was because the back door was actually guarded rather well? What’s that? The Lufwaffe had a right hump with the Scilly Isles and they to be held ‘at all costs’ for some reason?
Apart, of course, from the following, there were no Luftwaffe bases in Brittanny.
Kampfgeschwader 27 in Rennes
Aufklaerungsgruppe 31 in Rennes
Sturzkampfgeschwader 2 in St Malo and Lannion
Jagdgeschwader 53 in Rennes, Dinan, Sempry and Brest
etc.

To name but a few, and that's just those that were in Brittany, not including Western Normandy.

As far as moving aircraft from other parts of France, I don't expect it would go unnoticed. What the RAF could have done about it is another matter entirely.

Do you mean the Scilly Isles that didn't get any fighter aircraft until late 1941?
 
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Cork Harbour was already well defended with forts at Templebreedy, Camden, Carlisle and Spike Island. The significant cost would have been for AA defences. Similarly the other treaty Ports at Berehaven and Lough Swilly. I don't know about Galway though.
Galway never really had an RN presence. The bay is quite shallow; no suitable moorings for larger ships; lacked the hinterland to supply sufficient provisions for large crews.
 
What was the state of those forts ? By that I mean were they armed and provisioned with suitable stocks of ammunition ? If not, this has to be procured, people trained etc etc.
Imho, the RoI has to be in the war from 1939. Why ? To allow build up of her armed forces in the period of the so called phoney war. She has to buy arms from either the US ,France or the UK in that time and she's really not rolling in money. Once april 1940 comes around she's on the hind tit. The RN and RCN are having great problems in the Atlantic with the u boats, Irish shipping ( what there is of it ) is now target as well and her towns and cities. Is it worth it to the man in Tralee ? She's allied with a country she's fought a war of independence with, she's being attacked and the auguries for survival are not good.
In hindsight, had the IWI failed, the UK would have been left with acres of resentful countryside posing a COIN threat as well as defence problems for external attacks. Probably a good thing the Irish weren't involved as allies or as part of UK inc.
Fair argument.
1. In 1939, the Irish Free State was part of the Commonwealth and not a Republic.
2. The forts were in good condition as only handed over the previous year
Treaty Ports (Ireland) - Wikipedia
3. De Valera was obsessive in his disdain for anything British but was also a clever politician.
4. Joining the Allied side could have resulted in British troops returning seventeen years after a bitter and bloody War of Independence. This could have provoked a "settling of scores" leading to luke warm insurgency that the Free State government would responsible for dealing with. Dev, on the losing side of the Civil War, wasn't going to lose a second time.
5. Dev had successfully established himself as the 'One true leader of Republicanism' by rounding up his old comrades and imprisoning them for the duration of the war in the Curragh with less privileges than the interned German sailors and aircrew.
6. Dev was pragmatic enough to let the citizenry of the Free State to choose whatever side they wanted or be as involved as they wished as long as they sent home part of their pay. Someone has already mentioned the value of 'remittances' to the Irish economy and Dev knew that if he followed the rules of neutrality to the letter, he would have The Great Famine Part 2 on his hands:
TheJournal.ie - Irish emigrants sent €5.7 billion back from the UK over 30 years
7. However I think Dev didn't really consider the practical reality of neutrality for the average citizen and so it was left to others particularly Sean Lemass to deal with issues like importing and exporting food. Hence the founding of Irish Shipping:
Irish Shipping - Wikipedia
 
Galway never really had an RN presence. The bay is quite shallow; no suitable moorings for larger ships; lacked the hinterland to supply sufficient provisions for large crews.
Something to do with geology or something. I'm reading Brunicardi's book about Haulbowline at the moment and by the 18th century Kinsale suffered the same problem of being too small and shallow as ships grew larger.
 

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