Irish War of Independence centenary...and The Truce

Can I just check?

They are remarkably ignorant of the facts - this is not play-acting, although they try that also. Their knowledge, geographically and statistically of the province is very poor.

That's from 1921 right? Just checking.

;)
 
Can I just check?

They are remarkably ignorant of the facts - this is not play-acting, although they try that also. Their knowledge, geographically and statistically of the province is very poor.

That's from 1921 right? Just checking.

;)
Similar criticisms might be laid against, well nearly everyone, in 1981 ref a certain archipeligo.
Uninterested is not the same as disinterested.
 
Can I just check?

They are remarkably ignorant of the facts - this is not play-acting, although they try that also. Their knowledge, geographically and statistically of the province is very poor.

That's from 1921 right? Just checking.

;)
Plus ca change.
 
15 October 1945
macneill.jpg

Eoin MacNeill died on 15th October 1945. From Co. Antrim, MacNeill is most famous for being Chief of Staff of the Irish Volunteers in 1916, a group which he had helped form in 1913. His position was apparently nominal at best as he tried to call off the Easter Rising but everyone ignored him and went ahead anyway. One of his grandsons is Michael McDowell a former Minister for Justice who has recently mooted resurrecting the Progressive Democrats, as if our lives weren't bad enough. In our thread timeline in 1921, MacNeill is Ceann Comhairle (Chairperson or Speaker) of Dáil Éireann.
 
Last edited:
15 October 1921

It’s the weekend so there are no talks in London. In Dublin, it was announced that a special body would be established to review conditions in Irish prisons and internment camps. There have been growing calls for the release of all internees.

James Craig, in a speech to Unionists in Belfast, said that if the London negotiations break down 'their opponents' were preparing to attack the peaceful Protestant population of Ulster. He added that they would prepare just as well as Sinn Féin could.
 
Last edited:

sirbhp

LE
Book Reviewer
Just an update troops , i ve been researching my paternal granddads' IRA membership etc for around five years now . Had him as being awarded a service medal, but couldn't find him on the company rolls. That's because I was following the wrong bloke who was two years older than my granddad but with the same bloody name !
 

JCC

LE
Just an update troops , i ve been researching my paternal granddads' IRA membership etc for around five years now . Had him as being awarded a service medal, but couldn't find him on the company rolls. That's because I was following the wrong bloke who was two years older than my granddad but with the same bloody name !
Surely that's good news?
 
Just an update troops , i ve been researching my paternal granddads' IRA membership etc for around five years now . Had him as being awarded a service medal, but couldn't find him on the company rolls. That's because I was following the wrong bloke who was two years older than my granddad but with the same bloody name !
Why would you want to find out about your grandads membership of a terrorist organisation who killed British soldiers, Irish policemen and innocent Irish civilians for the last 100 years.
 
A good documentary about the massacre of innocent Protestant farmers in Coolacrease. I think this is the original RTE documentary which upset a lot of the T.A.L. crowd when it was first shown. By the red hand at the top of the screen it is being used by Ulster Protestant groups for their own ends. I wonder how many other incidents from a 100 years ago that are quitely hushed up.


 
A good documentary about the massacre of innocent Protestant farmers in Coolacrease. I think this is the original RTE documentary which upset a lot of the T.A.L. crowd when it was first shown. By the red hand at the top of the screen it is being used by Ulster Protestant groups for their own ends. I wonder how many other incidents from a 100 years ago that are quitely hushed up.



Explain the TAL please then explain why you feel the need to post again the same link
 
Why would you want to find out about your grandads membership of a terrorist organisation who killed British soldiers, Irish policemen and innocent Irish civilians for the last 100 years.
It's his family history and is fully entitled to research it, his ancestors actions may well be relevant to this thread.
 
You know full well what TAL means - our day will come. And showing the link again was to indicate that the incident is used by the UVF and other groups in the north.
Ahhh all is clear thanks for explain you meant
Tiocfaidh ar la

Everydays a school day


so propaganda ensuring hatred cycle isn’t broken then
 
You know full well what TAL means - our day will come. And showing the link again was to indicate that the incident is used by the UVF and other groups in the north.
A phrase coined in the 1970's i believe, so what relevance has your link to the Treaty negotiations? It was posted a few months back on this thread btw.
 
16 October 1921

Bernard Mailey was abducted by armed men as he returned home from church in Raphoe, Co. Donegal at about 7 pm. His body was found in a coffin the following evening at Mondooey, half way between Strabane and Letterkenny. The IRA conducted an inquest on the 18th at which two doctors gave evidence that Mailey had died of cardiac syncope. An official Post Mortem ten days later castigated the two doctors for carrying out an unofficial PM.

Internees in Kilkenny Jail ended a hunger strike after being given assurances that their demands a visit a day and one letter a week would be granted. They had been allowed a visitor and a letter once a month.

Sean McGarry, a Dublin TD denied James Craig's assertions of the day before that the South was preparing to invade the North. McGarry said the Dáil had no quarrels with the people of the North, and they were victims of policy pursued by Craig and Carson.

Seán Milroy, TD for Cavan and the Dáil Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, Robert Brennan, joined the Irish delegation in London. The two men had travelled overnight from Dublin. Milroy was another Englishman who had escaped from Lincol Jail along with De Valera and Sean McGarry (above) in 1919.

Incidentally it was Collins's 31st birthday.

Edited to add that in New York Harry Boland addressed 18,000 Irish-Americans in Madison Square Garden. He said that Britain had not yet offered fair terms to Ireland in the negotiations and that the Dominion Status on offer was not on a par with that of Canada.
 
Last edited:
17 October 1921

The Irish delegates presented their proposals on Northern Ireland. These involved asking the devolved government to give up its status under the 1920 Act or retain it with reserved powers transferring from Westminster to Dublin.

Sinn Féin of course, opposed the partition of Ireland under the Government of Ireland Act 1920, but by the time the negotiations began the devolved Government of Northern Ireland already existed. Perforce partition would have to be addressed in any negotiated agreement. Both sides had painted themselves into a corner on the issue; the British delegates, having created the problem, had pledged not to “coerce” Northern Ireland into a united Ireland. Lloyd George had previously confided to Tom Jones that he feared Tyrone and Fermanagh would wreck a settlement.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9260/CBP-9260.pdf
delegation.jpg
The Daily Sketch printed this photo of the Irish delegation with the Bishop of Down & Connor the previous day. The Catholics had attended Mass at Corpus Christi in Maiden Lane.

kitty.jpg

Michael Collins and Kitty Kiernan (above) were busily exchanging letters at this time. The couple were, as I said recently engaged and the wedding was planned for November 1922. On this day Kitty wrote that she had entertained the idea of marrying Harry Boland, but he knows that she does not love him. This would have been news to Harry who had, the previous week, written to Kitty asking her to join him in America. Boland does not yet know that the pair are engaged. The love triangle story in the film Michael Collins appears to have been partly based in fact. I always thought it was made up.
 
Last edited:
17 October 1921
The sub-committee on naval and air defence also met on this date. A memorandum from the Irish delegates on the discussion was written the following day;

Naval The formula read by Mr. Churchill at the beginning of the meeting on October 17th was as follows:

'The Irish Government confides the responsibility for the naval defence of Irish interests on the high seas to the Royal Navy and for this purpose as well as for those of general Imperial defence places its ports, harbours and inlets unreservedly at the disposal of the Imperial Government in peace or war'.

This formula appears to go much beyond the specific requirements given in document C.P. 3409 'Memorandum by the First Lord of the Admiralty' dated October 15th, 1921,1 in regard to British Peace requirements on the Irish Coasts, besides beginning with a general statement as to the basis of these requirements, namely, that the Irish Government confides the responsibility for the naval defence of Irish interests on the high seas to the British Navy'.

Defence on the high seas in war does not necessitate placing all 'ports, harbours and inlets unreservedly at the disposal' of the defending power in peace, while the memorandum of the First Lord only specified certain ports and property for retention in peace, a provision which appears to be inconsistent with 'unreserved disposal' if we rightly understand the expression used as one going beyond the ordinary facilities given in peace by international usage to all ships.

The general principle of the formula is one that the Irish representatives could not accept. It is inconsistent with the neutralised status which they claim for Ireland. Even a Dominion Government would not subscribe to it. The Dominion Governments would not declare that they confide the responsibility for the naval defence of their interests on the high seas to the British Navy nor that they 'place their ports, harbours and inlets unreservedly at the disposal of the Imperial Government' in time of peace in any other sense than that in which they place them at the disposal of ships of all countries which seek shelter, repair and other facilities. In war, according to our view, they reserve their right to decide whether or not to place their ports, as well as their military and naval forces, at the disposal of the British Government.

In this connection we desire to renew our request to see a copy of the agreement relating to Simonstown, referred to both at the principal Conference and at the informal Committee on Naval Defence on October 13th.

The memorandum of the First Lord asks for the occupation in peace of three ports and the buildings and fortifications attached thereto together with the right in war or, 'during a period of strained relations' to take any sites or buildings in any part of the island and to have 'undivided control over Irish waters'.

As outlined in the discussion, the counter proposal of the Irish Representatives is that Ireland should receive the status of guaranteed neutrality implying that no part of her territory should be occupied by Britain in peace, and that in war her neutrality should be respected by all belligerents. This course, they contend, so far from injuriously affecting the interests of Great Britain, would on the contrary be the safest and most satisfactory course both for Ireland and Great Britain. The Irish people attach supreme importance to the need for keeping their territory from any occupation or right of occupation or control which would definitely lower their political status and place all their other political rights and immunities in jeopardy. They are also averse to incurring any obligation to engage in any war. On the other hand, like other neutralised states, and like other small nations without a guarantee of neutrality, they realise the importance of being prepared to defend their own shores to the best of their power against violation from any quarter and will willingly undertake to take the necessary measures.

It is in Britain's interest that Ireland should be completely satisfied and friendly and that on this basis there should be willing and amicable association and mutual intercourse for all peaceful purposes. Neutralisation will be the surest means of effecting this end.

The strategical interests of Great Britain would, we urge, also be satisfied by this solution.

We have inferred that there is no serious apprehension on the British side of a regular invasion of Ireland by a foreign power, or even of a serious landing. Important Naval bases have not been maintained in Ireland and the establishment in peace is little more than nominal.

We, therefore, place aside this contingency, only remarking that the defensive forces, military and maritime, which will in the normal course be organised by the Irish Government would, altogether apart from 'high seas' operations add immensely to the difficulty of any such landing. In the improbable event of Irish territory being so violated, it would, of course, be the interest as well as the duty of Great Britain as a guaranteeing power, to come to Ireland's assistance.

We must point out that the unlikelihood of such violation places Ireland in a wholly different category from Belgium, wedged in between two great competitive land powers and with no natural defensive frontiers. Holland, though actually contiguous for four years to sustained military and air operations, maintained her neutrality throughout the recent war, as did all the other small nations bordering the North Sea and Baltic, including Denmark and Sweden which flank the narrow Baltic entrances. As an island on the western flank of Europe, Ireland is in a more secure position than any of these nations.

The main apprehension expressed on the British side is that in war, without naval and air bases on the Irish coast, the British Naval forces may be unable to protect commerce on the neighbouring trade-routes from submarine attack. Connected with this fear has been the suggestion that enemy submarines attacking shipping may take shelter and even receive small supplies in Irish inlets.

As to the latter ports upon which, we gather, little emphasis is laid, Irish defensive coast patrols, submarine-chasers and minelaying craft could perfectly well deal with any such contingency, except perhaps for an occasional case of a submarine coming for shelter to a bay at night, a case which no precaution can wholly prevent on any coast, neutral or hostile.

As to the protection of Commerce in war, our contention is that no necessity exists for the use by British naval forces of Irish coasts and ports for the protection against submarines of Merchant ships travelling to Great Britain.

It must first be pointed out that there is no reasonable possibility in the future of any European power being able to undertake a Naval war with Great Britain and that the submarines of a power such as Russia, which was mentioned at the meeting, would have a great distance and successive narrow-waters to traverse before reaching the Irish coasts, while trans-atlantic submarines would have to sustain prolonged operations from bases thousands of miles away - a possibility hardly yet in sight.

But even if the assumption be accepted that submarine attacks on British commerce in the waters of Western Europe are a real danger, it must be pointed out in the second place that Ireland does not 'lie across the seaways' as stated in the British proposals of July 20th.2 She lies on the flank of certain sea-ways. Holding Ireland in the recent world-war, Great Britain made Naval use of Ireland as the most westerly point in the Atlantic and organised trade-routes along the south and north coasts of Ireland accordingly. To take the South first, the distance between Fastnet and Ushant, between which lie the approaches to the English channel and the Irish sea is about 240 sea-miles, so that, in the absence of Ireland as a base, the more southerly trade-routes would naturally be employed, vessels upon which could be given escorts and protection from Cornish ports, and as regards St. George's channel and the Irish sea itself from Welsh and Scotch ports. But it may be added that in view of the great range and power of modern destroyers, it would be feasible to supply escorts based on Welsh and English ports even for a trade-route nearer to the South coast of Ireland were it desired to keep one open. A point mid-way between Land's end and Fastnet is about 85 miles from each. Pembroke is about 175 miles from Fastnet and 115 miles from the mid-way point mentioned.

The North Channel into the Irish Sea and the Clyde, if it were employed, and the seaward approaches to it could be protected adequately from Scotch bases. Lamlash, for instance, is only 80 miles from Lough Swilly.

There remains the important north-about route round Scotland into the North Sea, and so to all the eastern and southern British ports, for the protection of which bases on the Irish coast are not necessary at all.

Ireland does not in any sense block the road to England. It is not denied that use of her coasts are an additional convenience to the British Admiralty, but this convenience is not vital and cannot be set against the grave disadvantage of curtailing the status of Ireland and thus making her people feel unsatisfied.

It is assumed throughout this memorandum that there is no desire to restrict the Irish Government in the creation of defensive naval forces of its own. It is England's direct interest that she should not be so restricted. An offensive fighting Navy is not, of course, feasible or dreamed of. Some apprehension, which we do not understand, has been expressed about Irish submarines, for no Irish naval forces could be a menace to England, which in a strategical sense dominates Ireland with an immense preponderance of power and could destroy Irish Submarine bases. But in point of fact Ireland would be very unlikely to plan the building of submarines which are eminently an offensive weapon out of harmony with her purely defensive policy.

Air The considerations set forth above apply to Air Defence also. We are not quite clear as to whether a claim is made for coastal air bases in Ireland in time of peace. No sites have been mentioned. But we contest the claim if it is made, both for peace and war, with the same arguments as those used in the naval question and point to the same alternative bases for aircraft used to protect shipping against submarines.

It was suggested that enemy Aircraft in war may operate against British Commerce from Carriers, but the access of these carriers to points within range of Irish waters is a naval question and in the face of the British Navy they are no more likely to obtain such access than other enemy fighting surface ships. On the other hand British carriers of modern design will be available for anti-submarine work and reconnaissance upon the trade routes in addition to Aircraft flown from shore bases.

In regard to commercial aviation, Ireland would naturally adhere to the international Aerial Convention and supply in Irish Aerodromes the necessary facilities for British Aircraft in passage across the Atlantic.

Recruiting. This question was raised incidentally at the Meeting of the 17th. The right to carry on recruiting in Ireland for the British naval, military and air forces would not, we believe, be consistent with the position of a neutralised State and that consideration would preclude us from agreeing to it.

But we do not, in any case, appreciate the importance of the right as demanded on the British side. Ireland will naturally be a recruiting ground for Irish forces and competitive recruiting would be undesirable.


The document of 20th July referred to reads in part;

To this settlement the British Government are prepared to give immediate effect upon the following conditions, which are, in their opinion vital to the welfare and safety of both Great Britain and Ireland, forming as they do the heart of the Commonwealth.

  1. The common concern of Great Britain and Ireland in the defence of their interests by land and sea shall be mutually recognised. Great Britain lives by sea-borne food; her communications depend upon the freedom of the great sea routes. Ireland lies at Britain's side across the sea ways North and South that link her with the sister nations of the Empire, the markets of the world and the vital sources of her food supply. In recognition of this fact, which nature has imposed and no statesmanship can change, it is essential that the Royal Navy alone should control the seas around Ireland and Great Britain, and that such rights and liberties should be accorded to it by the Irish State as are essential for naval purposes in the Irish harbours and on the Irish coast.
  2. In order that the movement towards the limitation of armaments which is now making progress in the world should in no way be hampered, it is stipulated that the Irish Territorial force shall within reasonable limits conform in respect of numbers to the military establishments of the other parts of these islands.
  3. The position of Ireland is also of great importance for the Air Services, both military and civil. The Royal Air Force will need facilities for all purposes that it serves; and Ireland will form an essential link in the development of Air routes between the British Isles and the North American Continent. It is therefore stipulated that Great Britain shall have all necessary facilities for the development of defence and of communications by Air.
  4. Great Britain hopes that Ireland will in due course and of her own free will contribute in proportion to her wealth to the regular Naval, Military and Air forces of the Empire. It is further assumed that voluntary recruitment for these forces will be permitted throughout Ireland, particularly for those famous Irish Regiments which have so long and so gallantly served His Majesty in all parts of the world.
 

sirbhp

LE
Book Reviewer
Why would you want to find out about your grandads membership of a terrorist organisation who killed British soldiers, Irish policemen and innocent Irish civilians for the last 100 years.
Because he was my granddad and in the rest of the (Irish) families side was a freedom fighter during an important part of the history of Eire, I guess .
 
17 October 1921

The problem of Northern Ireland entered the negotiations on 17th October 1921. The Irish delegates presented their proposals on Northern Ireland. These involved asking the devolved government to give up its status under the 1920 Act or retain it with reserved powers transferring from Westminster to Dublin.

Sinn Féin of course, opposed the partition of Ireland under the Government of Ireland Act 1920, but by the time the negotiations began the devolved Government of Northern Ireland already existed. Perforce partition would have to be addressed in any negotiated agreement. Both sides had painted themselves into a corner on the issue; the British delegates, having created the problem, had pledged not to “coerce” Northern Ireland into a united Ireland. Lloyd George had previously confided to Tom Jones that he feared Tyrone and Fermanagh would wreck a settlement.
The problem being Northern Ireland, or am I missing a detail?
 

Latest Threads

Top