Irish Government Involvement In IRA bombings?

#1
British government accused (yet again) of 'ungentlemanly activities' in that they allegedly supplied 'int etc to a proscribed organisation' enabling them to sucessfully carry out Bombing's for brownie points. Is the Irish government entirely Innocent? :?
 
#2
oh but of course the only people who suffered in the troubles were the poor opressed nationalist peoples of Ireland :wink:
 
#4
yes but only using weapons and cash supplied by the USA, so it doesnt count.
 
#5
yes and what about the irish army camp in donegal that was used for training?

but then the BBC are providing an open platform and ammo to Irish politicians to infer colusion without any evidence.
 
#6
Lets also not forget that the Irish Gov moved troops to the border in 1969 and again just after Bloody Sunday on so called "humantarian grounds"

Charles Haughey was the PM alegedly involved in the gun running... strangely nothing was proved though - I seem to remember some of his business collegues/associates were convicted.

And what about the Irish Army soldiers caught and convicted in the North for IRA activities...

People in glass houses shouldn't th........
 
#7
Get real. You should know by now that it doesn't matter if the Security Forces spent the last 34 years following all their orders, only engaging people who have taken out civilians or members of the security forces and all been put up in court for murder.... and the republican movement will still demand that somebody other than themselves be dragged up to be blamed for every republican who has been killed or injured.

At the same time they were demanding POW status and calling it a war.

They are really lucky that the US was providing funds and arms rather than treating them the way a terrorist organization would be treated by the US today. They really would have seen a 'shoot to kill' policy then!
 
#8
Plant-Pilot said:
They are really lucky that the US was providing funds and arms rather than treating them the way a terrorist organization would be treated by the US today. They really would have seen a 'shoot to kill' policy then!
Now that would have been worth watching
 
#9
yes and what about the irish army camp in donegal that was used for training?
Would be funny if it wasn't true. But years ago when it was kicking off properly the Provo's had themselves on the ranges at Ballykinler, loosing off a couple of magazines at the Hollow. Granted, I doubt they would have had their range letters in with Range Control.

"They haven't gone away you know."
 
#10
they also used to use the range on black mountain. In the 1980's a mate of mine in the DR was up there for some practice the SGT was complaining about the Brass on the firing points then realised it was 7.62x39 or so the story goes
 
#11
I've never been one to hold back in my criticism of the Irish Government with regard to its pusillanimous and self serving atitude towards the IRA but....... Does anybody have any CONCRETE evidence that the Irish Army were training PIRA in an Army camp in Donegal in the early '70's?
Frankly I doubt it very much and it should be remembered that Haughey was not the Irish Prime Minister when he was accused of involvement in gun-running . he was a senior politician at the time though. and I believe he was dismissed or forced to resign over it. He wasn't convicted though.
I'd imagine that a few Provo's did get some training from the Irish Army by the simple and legal expedient of joining the FCA (Ireland's TA) for a few months. I'd be very surprised if a number of Loyalist's didn't do pretty much the same with our TA however, it would have been too tempting not to in those days. There is at least anecdotal evidence that in the '50's and '60's it was known for IRA men to join the British Army, complete their basic training and then go AWOL thus providing the IRA with a trained man free of charge. I'd be very surprised if it didn't happen at least a few times, wouldn't you?
 
#12
that is true one of our members was asked to leave the TA for activities incompatable with service.
Mind you the unit I'm now in found it had someone thrown out for gathering information for the IRA
 
#13
Wasn't there an Irish Prime Minister involved in gun running in the 70's?
Frankly I doubt it very much and it should be remembered that Haughey was not the Irish Prime Minister when he was accused of involvement in gun-running . he was a senior politician at the time though. and I believe he was dismissed or forced to resign over it. He wasn't convicted though.
He was a Minister at the time not Prime Minister, he was found not guilty and they tried to blame an Army Intelligence Officer who was acting under orders.... the problem was no one told the Prime Minister or the rest of the Cabinet!

As an aside, when he was Prime Minister he put everyone on 42% tax, while he bought a private island for himself and in 1 year in the 90s spent over IR£ 15,000 on shirts. A tribunal later found that he had received over IR£8 million in backhanders!

He was found not guilty during the Arms Trial but was dismissed from the Cabinet.........he was definitely involved but the case was complicated (if the Cabinet had permission it wasn't illegal).

Lets also not forget that the Irish Gov moved troops to the border in 1969 and again just after Bloody Sunday on so called "humantarian grounds"

Charles Haughey was the PM alegedly involved in the gun running... strangely nothing was proved though - I seem to remember some of his business collegues/associates were convicted.

And what about the Irish Army soldiers caught and convicted in the North for IRA activities...

People in glass houses shouldn't th........
See above...... one of the best recruiting events the PIRA ever had was the shooting of unarmed civilians on Bloody Sunday, you have to understand that the troubles changed over time. In the early days, it was about protecting (and getting rights for) Catholic people who were being burnt out of there homes. These people had extremely high unemployment, little democractic voice (due to changing of boundaries to ensure that Unionists were always in the majority) and very poor housing.... remember all this was done in the name of the Queen by Protestants (now adays there are words for this, that end in court in the Hague (having said that it never got to the stage of massive killings (in comparsion to say Kosovo).


Unfortually over time it became more about the ego, cash and hatred of a relatively small number of people.



Is the Irish government entirely Innocent? :?
You can't compare Governments like that as policies change (ie Maggy and Blair). The Irish Government policy in 1969 was to support the Catholics in the North with protection (see below), assist refugees (camps were set up around the country and plenty came down!), trying to get a UN force deployed and invasion was talked about. As the situation changed the policies changed.

yes and what about the irish army camp in donegal that was used for training?

I've never been one to hold back in my criticism of the Irish Government with regard to its pusillanimous and self serving atitude towards the IRA but....... Does anybody have any CONCRETE evidence that the Irish Army were training PIRA in an Army camp in Donegal in the early '70's?
I'd imagine that a few Provo's did get some training from the Irish Army by the simple and legal expedient of joining the FCA (Ireland's TA) for a few months.
That is exactly what happened and it involved a couple of hundred going on "camp" in Donegal.... it is documented.
 
#14
Don't forget that the Irish were and continue to be very harsh on the PIRA, the Special Criminal Court (a non-jury court) and the inside of Portlaoise Prision became very familiar to PIRA members.

The PIRA also killed a number of Gardai (inspite of it being againist PIRA rules) as did the Gardai kill a number of PIRA in the course of their duties.
 

jim24

LE
Book Reviewer
#15
Don't forget that the Irish were and continue to be very harsh on the PIRA, the Special Criminal Court (a non-jury court) and the inside of Portlaoise Prision became very familiar to PIRA members.

The PIRA also killed a number of Gardai (inspite of it being againist PIRA rules) as did the Gardai kill a number of PIRA in the course of their duties.
FFS PIRA killed quite a few PIRA as well, but there is no doubt that when the OIRA looked like gaining the upper hand in 1970 the Southern government,with American backing assisted the formation of PIRA to ensure that OIRA did not make Ulster a Cuba like enclave if the Brits pulled out. which they very nearly did when we had that gutless cnut Wilson as Prime Minister
 
#16
"In the early days, it was about protecting (and getting rights for) Catholic people who were being burnt out of there homes. These people had extremely high unemployment, little democractic voice (due to changing of boundaries to ensure that Unionists were always in the majority) and very poor housing.... remember all this was done in the name of the Queen by Protestants" Quoted by IrlSgt.

Not quite Irl Sgt. I grew up / began work in a predominantly Nationalist area of Northern Ireland. Working class Protestants had no more rights than working class Catholics. The well-off of both Catholic and Protestant lived comfortably of course - it's the same in any country. (Catholic owned businesses by the way rarely if ever employed Protestants then). Those who really wanted to work could find it (something called the "Presbyterian work ethic" - which applied also to non-Presbyterians, had an effect on this). Like other parts of the UK Northern Ireland had areas of few work opportunities; employment was scarce whatever your religious faith.
Boundaries did not change significantly in my time; such districts as I knew had existed historically since, in most instances, well before the 1920's. Poor housing affected both communities and, as some will be aware who served in Belfast in particular, Protestants had often much older and poorer housing than Catholics.
Democratic voices of both sides of the community were however listened to much more intently than my Protestant relatives across the border could imagine - they had no voice at all!
The simple fact was that there were more Protestants than Catholics. This meant that numerically more Protestants than Catholics were actually in work. And the constant threat down the years of violence from Nationalist / Republican activists ( and the offical government of the Irish Republic) tended to make Protestants very defensive / protective of their small corner.

Don't blame the Queen, or for that matter Protestantism, blame all those who found it so hard to accept that perhaps those people of the northern counties had a right to exist in peace and without the generations of hostility directed against them.

A little study of the history of Belfast would inform you that of all the cities of the British Isles Belfast (through the voices of her Presbyterian representatives), was the one part of the UK which unequivocally rejected trade derived from slavery. They could have become rich if they, like many others, English and Irish included, had joined the slave trade. They became prosperous instead by innovation, expertise, and sheer hard work.

If I wanted to be truely brutal I would say, why blame "the North" for the lack of prosperity in the rest of Ireland - which is what the various governments and activists in the Irish Republic / Eire / Irish Free State were really doing during those years. Diversionary tactics, jealousy, envy; think about it.
 
#17
During 75/6 I was on a long course that included a Irish Army officer. The Irish Army undoubtedly saw the PIRA as a threat. It seems there armoury procedures were particularly strict and they kept their radios in the armoury to prevent PIRA nicking them. Through this guy I also met an Irish Army coy comd holidaying in UK. Best story was when his coy was in the border area protecting Ian Paisley who was opening a new church in the south, bascially they were picketing the hills along Paisley's route. Anyway as he was roaming along the pickets he found one of his soldiers with his SLR in the shoulder aiming at Paisley, he challenged the guy who responsed "Sor, I just wanted to be able to tell me old mother in Cork that I'd had Ian Paisley in me sights".
 
#18
FFS PIRA killed quite a few PIRA as well, but there is no doubt that when the OIRA looked like gaining the upper hand in 1970 the Southern government,with American backing assisted the formation of PIRA to ensure that OIRA did not make Ulster a Cuba like enclave if the Brits pulled out. which they very nearly did when we had that gutless cnut Wilson as Prime Minister
Pulling out was never on the cards with wilson. Mind you neither was givimg in to terrorism. It took the Blair govt to do that.
 
#19
Quote from Jaeger
"There is at least anecdotal evidence that in the '50's and '60's it was known for IRA men to join the British Army, complete their basic training and then go AWOL thus providing the IRA with a trained man free of charge. I'd be very surprised if it didn't happen at least a few times, wouldn't you?" Quote from Jaeger.

This is how the 1950's/1960's IRA raids on British military establishments in Northern Ireland and England were planned. They were all fairly successful (particularly in the actual operation) because details of guard routines, location of armouries, routes and entrances, and of course potential IA drills on the part of the garrison, were all studied in detail by those specially positioned to do so. Of course many other such establishments were studied. Those bases chosen were thought to offer the best chance of success.

A neighbour of mine, born in Northern Ireland and whose family (RC) were otherwise hardworking, upright and staunch supporters (and beneficiaries) of the status quo in Northern Ireland, joined the Irish Army, went AWOL, was found to be involved in PIRA activities, and then "disappeared". No one knows whether he is in America (literally), or "in America" (colloquially). His family of course, even after almost forty years of silence, wish the former. His father, working for my brother at the time, was heartbroken.
 

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