Iraq militants show crash video

#1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4472199.stm

The cameraman orders him to stand up, but the survivor says he has a broken leg and asks for help.

The militants appear to help him up, and tell him to run away.

Then they shoot him at point blank range and he collapses.

They continue to shoot the body, shouting "Allahu Akbar" (God is Great).
Brutal, soulless barbarians.

It said the killing was revenge for the murder of Muslims in Falluja - an apparent reference to a video showing a US soldier shooting dead a wounded Iraqi in a mosque in November.
I don't see big difference between these ugly crimes but action of American soldier can't approve this atrocity.
 
#2
I think the Russian's are the masters of criminal acts on the battlefield - just look no further than chechnya.

It was a wonder that anyone survived the crash. I have seen the video and it is brutal. If the airman had been armed he might have been able to defend himself.
 
#3
tomahawk6 said:
I think the Russian's are the masters of criminal acts on the battlefield - just look no further than chechnya.

It was a wonder that anyone survived the crash. I have seen the video and it is brutal. If the airman had been armed he might have been able to defend himself.
Dear tomahawk!

Your opinion about Russians is very valuable of course but is it based on facts known to you? Anyway, I respect your point of view. It would be very kind of you to show even one concrete example. I mean something like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3825439.stm
 
#4
KGB_resident said:
Your opinion about Russians is very valuable of course but is it based on facts known to you? Anyway, I respect your point of view. It would be very kind of you to show even one concrete example. I mean something like this:
KGBr

The example you gave was of 'claims' of mutilation, not proved and I'd like to point out, under investigation. And there's the difference, when claims are made against the British Army they are investigated and if proven, the perpetrators are tried by court martial.

You can throw sh1t if you want, but you'll have a lot more thrown back.... with proof.
 
#5
KGB-R

I would hardly call a report by the Guardian as concrete. I have yet to hear that these claims were even substanciated (spelling never was my strong point)
 
#6
Plant-Pilot said:
KGB_resident said:
Your opinion about Russians is very valuable of course but is it based on facts known to you? Anyway, I respect your point of view. It would be very kind of you to show even one concrete example. I mean something like this:
KGBr

The example you gave was of 'claims' of mutilation, not proved and I'd like to point out, under investigation. And there's the difference, when claims are made against the British Army they are investigated and if proven, the perpetrators are tried by court martial.

You can throw sh1t if you want, but you'll have a lot more thrown back.... with proof.
Dear Plant-Pilot!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1403129_1,00.html

The investigation lacked "the progress and open public scrutiny which... seems to have been achieved with other investigations arising out of possible offences in prisons under the control of US forces".
How can you comment it? Look also my thread here on page 4.

Regards!
 
#7
wooger said:
KGB-R

I would hardly call a report by the Guardian as concrete. I have yet to hear that these claims were even substanciated (spelling never was my strong point)
Dear Wooger!

My spelling is much worse. I suppose that right variant would be 'substantiated' but I'm not sure. Anyway, result of the investigation is unknown or maybe it is in active phase?
 
#9
KGBr,

Again, your example is of a single incident involving a single Iraqi. I agree, if there is sufficient proof it should be investigated.

But, I did say that if you wanted to try and tarnish the reputation of the British Army you should try and at least do that from a postition on the moral highground. As it has been pointed out the treatment of people in Chechnya means that you cannot do that. Too many atrocities commited on too many people and maybe the most important point, not investigated and no real will to do so.

You can read about :-
"widespread killing, arson, rape and looting in Aldi. The victims included an eighty-two-year-old woman, and a one-year-old-boy with his twenty-nine-year-old mother, who was eight months pregnant. The 46-page report criticizes the failure of the Russian authorities to undertake a credible investigation into the massacre and provide adequate protection for witnesses." where "The Russian government has not undertaken any serious investigation of these horrendous crimes,"
Russian atrocities in Grozny

You can read about:-
" Systematic Russian atrocities in Chechnya threaten regional stability"
Russian atrocities in Chechnya

You can read about :-
"Russian atrocities in Chechnya observed by a Polish writer"
Russian atrocities in Chechnya

You can rerad about and watch video of:-
"The treatment of Chechnyens who gave themselves up during an amnesty in Chervlyonnya"
Amnesty in Chechnya?

Okay KGBr, look at that lot, and there's plenty more where that came from and then try and comment on the very little that has been done by American and British forces in Iraq.
 
#10
PartTimePongo said:
Back to the topic perhaps?
I regard it as a hint not discuss this theme further. There is Russian proverb: guest should be respected but he shouldn't forget that he is a guest.

So your comment, even brief would be enough to close the theme about Baha Mousa.

Though I hope that I can be foregiven. Russian military was accused in war-crimes without any concrete example.
 
#11
KGB_resident said:
Russian military was accused in war-crimes without any concrete example.
So you didn't bother reading the links or watching the video then? You accuse the British and Americans with no evidence at all, then say that reports, independent eye witnesses and the video of russian soldiers watching over bodies being unloaded from a russian army truck is not 'concrete example'??

So, do you think anyone around here should take a single word you say seriously? :?
 
#12
Plant-Pilot!

Again, your example is of a single incident involving a single Iraqi. I agree, if there is sufficient proof it should be investigated.

Suppose that only one murder in London would not be investigated and killers freely walk along Downing street. What whould you say then? Suppose that similar case would take place in jail in the UK. Then it would be a big fuss about it. Even highly esteemed mr.Straw could resign.

But, I did say that if you wanted to try and tarnish the reputation of the British Army you should try and at least do that from a postition on the moral highground.

First of all in my eyes reputation of British army is on unreachable hight. As i'm private person, then you remark is irrelevant.

As it has been pointed out the treatment of people in Chechnya means that you cannot do that. Too many atrocities commited on too many people and maybe the most important point, not investigated and no real will to do so.


Russian atrocities in Grozny


Human Rights Watch. Their method is a simple one. Chechen rebels write terrible fairy-tales (for known reasons) and HRW (and other similar organisations) simply reprint them.

Try to find this story on BBC or in serious British newspaper like Telegraph, Times, FT, Guardian. Who namely was killed or raped. What are their names and surnames.

You can read about:-
" Systematic Russian atrocities in Chechnya threaten regional stability"
Russian atrocities in Chechnya


It is absolutely unreliable source. Internet is owercrowded by such sort of "information".

You can read about :-
"Russian atrocities in Chechnya observed by a Polish writer"
Russian atrocities in Chechnya
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/pipermail/rad-green/2002-October/004974.html


Message board of university of Utah. Yes, it is "reliable" source.

You can rerad about and watch video of:-
"The treatment of Chechnyens who gave themselves up during an amnesty in Chervlyonnya"
Amnesty in Chechnya?


What criminal do you see there? Bodies of killed rebels? If enenemy is not surrender then his fate is sad and face of death is terrible everywhere.

Try to find any information in reliable sources (preferably BBC) and you will fail to find anything. I mean unpunished war-crimes.

I expect something like this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3095003.stm

A Russian officer has been convicted of murdering a Chechen woman and sentenced to 10 years in jail.
 
#13
Soldiers put on trial to apease critisisum The Guardian

Rape and death in Chechnya The BBC

Russian deth squads and torture The Independent

Rights groups condemn russia BBC

Disapearances mount IWPR

Torture and rape stalk the streets of Chechnya Observer

Mass grave found on Chechnyen border BBC

The list is quite honestly endless.

Now KGBr, you still going to sit there and accuse British forces of atrocities in Iraq?
 
#14
Dear Plant-Pilotski!

You are forgetting something, Tovarich! As our esteemed Glorious Leader Iosif Stalin once said, one death is a tragedy, many deaths is a statistic!

Therefore the proof of Russian atrocities against unarmed civilians is a mere statistic and doesn't matter! But, one unsubstantiated report of Evil Capitalist Yankee Pigs shooting wounded insurgent who may have had bomb, that is a tragedy & so far worse and must be investigated! Might I also add that because of this I can safely say Bush=Fascist Pig, but Stalin - all benevolent leader who did not have his opponents shot or send millions to Gulag. Even if he did, they deserved to be shot anyway as opponents of Glorious Socialist Paradise where workers less exploited than in Yankee Capitalist Pig factories.

Thus I spit on your so-called "substantiated accounts of atrocities" compiled by capitalist swine in the pay of international capitalist spy network.
 
#15
Soldiers put on trial to apease critisisum The Guardian

Sorry by I meant UNPUNISHED war-crimes. Case of Eduard Ulman is well known. He spent almost 2 years in custody and this case is not closed even now. Group from GRU killed by mistake peaceful Chechens and tried to hide their crime. By contrast we see dead body of Baha Mousa and no one was punished, charged or detained.

Rape and death in Chechnya The BBC

Sorry, but have you read my previous post. Namely colonel Budanov was guilty in this crime and he was sentenced to 10 years in prison. So crime was punished. Btw, the girl was not raped. It was established by court. Budanov killed her after dicovering of her photo with sniper rifle in hands. Day before two his soldiers were killed by sniper.

Russian deth squads and torture The Independent

Sorry, but this article is available only for money, So I can't comment it. If information is true, then it can be found in other news-sources. Please, refer to them.

Rights groups condemn russia BBC

Sorry but BBC tells not about atrocities, but about Human rights groups that use to rant about them. All these (ethnically not Russians) CAI-paid Russia-haters like Anna Neistat love to search web-sites of separatists and sound their fairy tales. No one concrete case in the article, no one name, no one place.

Disapearances mount IWPR

It is 'Institute for War & Peace Reporting'. Probably funded by CIA - unserious source of information. Try to find this information on BBC.

Torture and rape stalk the streets of Chechnya Observer

'It was difficult to photograph the moment, though I have grown somewhat accustomed to this,' says a petite greying Chechen woman, who has spent years documenting what Russia calls its 'anti-terrorism campaign'.
Blowing people up, dead or alive, she reports, is the latest tactic introduced by the federal army into the conflict. It was utilised perhaps most effectively on 3 July in the village of Meskyer Yurt, where 21 men, women and children were bound together and blown up, their remains thrown into a ditch.
Look "petite greying Chechen woman". Without name of course. All "information" is from this "reliable" source. These fairy-tales was paid by CIA and Krystyna Kurczab-Redlich is well-known Russia-hater. Any Chechen as Russian citisen has right to appeal to courts, to offices of prosecutors, to general Prosecutor, to European Court for Human Right. Mrs. Krystyna Kurczab-Redlich could help to write official complain. Try to find information in the article that all appeals to courts were rejected. so there wasn't any complains. But why?

Mass grave found on Chechnyen border BBC
The list is quite honestly endless.


The news of the discovery comes two weeks after Russian intelligence released a video of a mass grave found in Chechnya that contained the remains of about 100 Russian soldiers and civilians - all reportedly beheaded.
Maybe Russian soldiers were killed by Russian army?

The human rights group Memorial said seven of the bodies - of ethnic Chechen men who were uncovered last Friday - had been identified.
It is well known case. I suspect that Chechens were killed by Chechens who backs Federal forces (and it is a real crime). But after very long investigation there are no proof. I agree there this case is very suspicious but without firm proof it is impossibly to bring it to court. And it is possible that ordinary criminals comitted this murder.

Now KGBr, you still going to sit there and accuse British forces of atrocities in Iraq?

You understood me in the wrong way. Bad guys are everywhere and war crimes are possible in each army. I puzzled by position of MoD. Instead of fast and faur investigation I see tricky games.
 
#16
So, basically, you asked for evidence, you were then presented it, and your careful analysis proved that every single news source about Chechnya is unreliable because it is either funded by the CIA or attributed to someone who doesn't like Russia?
 
#17
Having reviewed Sergey's posts, I've come to the conclusion that Churchill was, in fact, wrong, and the UK should have made peace with Hitler in early 1941. Rather like Iran vs Iraq in the 1980's, Hitler's Germany vs Stalin's Russia would be a war that just couldn't go on long enough, IMHO.
 
#18
cheesypoptart said:
So, basically, you asked for evidence, you were then presented it, and your careful analysis proved that every single news source about Chechnya is unreliable because it is either funded by the CIA or attributed to someone who doesn't like Russia?
Look, captain Ulman and his crew were detained next day after anlawful killing (by mustake). Colonel Budanov was detained next day. I remember one case. Two sergeants killed by mistake pair in Chechnya and to hide their crime (they knew that they would be unconditionally punished) they killed two their daughters. Sergeants were detained next day after complaint of local Chechens and got 18 and 14 years in prison.

Other stories that I commented looks as fairy tales. It is impossible to verifty them. Once mr.Putin (as I remember a year ago) on press-conference on question about violation of human rights in Chrchnya repled: whose namely rights was violated. No one concrete case was sounded.

By contrast, there is name Baha Mousa, thime - 15 September 2003, place - British custody in Basra, result - dead bodu with many broken ribs, nose and 50 wounds and nobody detained, nobody charged. And MoD declare that it is not liable for his death. It is an absurd. Commander of the custody bears direct responsibility for any wrongdoing, does he? He should be punished, at least disciplined.
 
#19
AndyPipkin said:
Having reviewed Sergey's posts, I've come to the conclusion that Churchill was, in fact, wrong, and the UK should have made peace with Hitler in early 1941. Rather like Iran vs Iraq in the 1980's, Hitler's Germany vs Stalin's Russia would be a war that just couldn't go on long enough, IMHO.
Dear Andy!

History can't be remade. Btw, after Stalingrad Stalin had excellent possibility to sign peace with Germany. Hitler was prepared to it. He would return (with pleasure all Soviet territory) and Stalin would watch as German (still very strong army) operate in N.Africa, invade the UK.

But Stalin didn't even regard such a possibility. He was a cruel ruler, dictator but dirty political games were not his hobby.
 
#20
Now this is odd, I'm saying let's focus back on thread...

If ever there was a reason why we're there to exterminate these rabid animals, the helicopter video does it for me.
 

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