Iraq militants show crash video

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by KGB_resident, Apr 22, 2005.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4472199.stm

    Brutal, soulless barbarians.

    I don't see big difference between these ugly crimes but action of American soldier can't approve this atrocity.
     
  2. I think the Russian's are the masters of criminal acts on the battlefield - just look no further than chechnya.

    It was a wonder that anyone survived the crash. I have seen the video and it is brutal. If the airman had been armed he might have been able to defend himself.
     
  3. Dear tomahawk!

    Your opinion about Russians is very valuable of course but is it based on facts known to you? Anyway, I respect your point of view. It would be very kind of you to show even one concrete example. I mean something like this:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3825439.stm
     
  4. KGBr

    The example you gave was of 'claims' of mutilation, not proved and I'd like to point out, under investigation. And there's the difference, when claims are made against the British Army they are investigated and if proven, the perpetrators are tried by court martial.

    You can throw sh1t if you want, but you'll have a lot more thrown back.... with proof.
     
  5. KGB-R

    I would hardly call a report by the Guardian as concrete. I have yet to hear that these claims were even substanciated (spelling never was my strong point)
     
  6. Dear Plant-Pilot!

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1403129_1,00.html

    How can you comment it? Look also my thread here on page 4.

    Regards!
     
  7. Dear Wooger!

    My spelling is much worse. I suppose that right variant would be 'substantiated' but I'm not sure. Anyway, result of the investigation is unknown or maybe it is in active phase?
     
  8. Back to the topic perhaps?
     
  9. KGBr,

    Again, your example is of a single incident involving a single Iraqi. I agree, if there is sufficient proof it should be investigated.

    But, I did say that if you wanted to try and tarnish the reputation of the British Army you should try and at least do that from a postition on the moral highground. As it has been pointed out the treatment of people in Chechnya means that you cannot do that. Too many atrocities commited on too many people and maybe the most important point, not investigated and no real will to do so.

    You can read about :-
    "widespread killing, arson, rape and looting in Aldi. The victims included an eighty-two-year-old woman, and a one-year-old-boy with his twenty-nine-year-old mother, who was eight months pregnant. The 46-page report criticizes the failure of the Russian authorities to undertake a credible investigation into the massacre and provide adequate protection for witnesses." where "The Russian government has not undertaken any serious investigation of these horrendous crimes,"
    Russian atrocities in Grozny

    You can read about:-
    " Systematic Russian atrocities in Chechnya threaten regional stability"
    Russian atrocities in Chechnya

    You can read about :-
    "Russian atrocities in Chechnya observed by a Polish writer"
    Russian atrocities in Chechnya

    You can rerad about and watch video of:-
    "The treatment of Chechnyens who gave themselves up during an amnesty in Chervlyonnya"
    Amnesty in Chechnya?

    Okay KGBr, look at that lot, and there's plenty more where that came from and then try and comment on the very little that has been done by American and British forces in Iraq.
     
  10. I regard it as a hint not discuss this theme further. There is Russian proverb: guest should be respected but he shouldn't forget that he is a guest.

    So your comment, even brief would be enough to close the theme about Baha Mousa.

    Though I hope that I can be foregiven. Russian military was accused in war-crimes without any concrete example.
     
  11. So you didn't bother reading the links or watching the video then? You accuse the British and Americans with no evidence at all, then say that reports, independent eye witnesses and the video of russian soldiers watching over bodies being unloaded from a russian army truck is not 'concrete example'??

    So, do you think anyone around here should take a single word you say seriously? :?
     
  12. Plant-Pilot!

    Again, your example is of a single incident involving a single Iraqi. I agree, if there is sufficient proof it should be investigated.

    Suppose that only one murder in London would not be investigated and killers freely walk along Downing street. What whould you say then? Suppose that similar case would take place in jail in the UK. Then it would be a big fuss about it. Even highly esteemed mr.Straw could resign.

    But, I did say that if you wanted to try and tarnish the reputation of the British Army you should try and at least do that from a postition on the moral highground.

    First of all in my eyes reputation of British army is on unreachable hight. As i'm private person, then you remark is irrelevant.

    As it has been pointed out the treatment of people in Chechnya means that you cannot do that. Too many atrocities commited on too many people and maybe the most important point, not investigated and no real will to do so.


    Russian atrocities in Grozny


    Human Rights Watch. Their method is a simple one. Chechen rebels write terrible fairy-tales (for known reasons) and HRW (and other similar organisations) simply reprint them.

    Try to find this story on BBC or in serious British newspaper like Telegraph, Times, FT, Guardian. Who namely was killed or raped. What are their names and surnames.

    You can read about:-
    " Systematic Russian atrocities in Chechnya threaten regional stability"
    Russian atrocities in Chechnya


    It is absolutely unreliable source. Internet is owercrowded by such sort of "information".

    You can read about :-
    "Russian atrocities in Chechnya observed by a Polish writer"
    Russian atrocities in Chechnya
    http://lists.econ.utah.edu/pipermail/rad-green/2002-October/004974.html


    Message board of university of Utah. Yes, it is "reliable" source.

    You can rerad about and watch video of:-
    "The treatment of Chechnyens who gave themselves up during an amnesty in Chervlyonnya"
    Amnesty in Chechnya?


    What criminal do you see there? Bodies of killed rebels? If enenemy is not surrender then his fate is sad and face of death is terrible everywhere.

    Try to find any information in reliable sources (preferably BBC) and you will fail to find anything. I mean unpunished war-crimes.

    I expect something like this

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3095003.stm

     
  13. Soldiers put on trial to apease critisisum The Guardian

    Rape and death in Chechnya The BBC

    Russian deth squads and torture The Independent

    Rights groups condemn russia BBC

    Disapearances mount IWPR

    Torture and rape stalk the streets of Chechnya Observer

    Mass grave found on Chechnyen border BBC

    The list is quite honestly endless.

    Now KGBr, you still going to sit there and accuse British forces of atrocities in Iraq?
     
  14. Dear Plant-Pilotski!

    You are forgetting something, Tovarich! As our esteemed Glorious Leader Iosif Stalin once said, one death is a tragedy, many deaths is a statistic!

    Therefore the proof of Russian atrocities against unarmed civilians is a mere statistic and doesn't matter! But, one unsubstantiated report of Evil Capitalist Yankee Pigs shooting wounded insurgent who may have had bomb, that is a tragedy & so far worse and must be investigated! Might I also add that because of this I can safely say Bush=Fascist Pig, but Stalin - all benevolent leader who did not have his opponents shot or send millions to Gulag. Even if he did, they deserved to be shot anyway as opponents of Glorious Socialist Paradise where workers less exploited than in Yankee Capitalist Pig factories.

    Thus I spit on your so-called "substantiated accounts of atrocities" compiled by capitalist swine in the pay of international capitalist spy network.
     
  15. Soldiers put on trial to apease critisisum The Guardian

    Sorry by I meant UNPUNISHED war-crimes. Case of Eduard Ulman is well known. He spent almost 2 years in custody and this case is not closed even now. Group from GRU killed by mistake peaceful Chechens and tried to hide their crime. By contrast we see dead body of Baha Mousa and no one was punished, charged or detained.

    Rape and death in Chechnya The BBC

    Sorry, but have you read my previous post. Namely colonel Budanov was guilty in this crime and he was sentenced to 10 years in prison. So crime was punished. Btw, the girl was not raped. It was established by court. Budanov killed her after dicovering of her photo with sniper rifle in hands. Day before two his soldiers were killed by sniper.

    Russian deth squads and torture The Independent

    Sorry, but this article is available only for money, So I can't comment it. If information is true, then it can be found in other news-sources. Please, refer to them.

    Rights groups condemn russia BBC

    Sorry but BBC tells not about atrocities, but about Human rights groups that use to rant about them. All these (ethnically not Russians) CAI-paid Russia-haters like Anna Neistat love to search web-sites of separatists and sound their fairy tales. No one concrete case in the article, no one name, no one place.

    Disapearances mount IWPR

    It is 'Institute for War & Peace Reporting'. Probably funded by CIA - unserious source of information. Try to find this information on BBC.

    Torture and rape stalk the streets of Chechnya Observer

    Look "petite greying Chechen woman". Without name of course. All "information" is from this "reliable" source. These fairy-tales was paid by CIA and Krystyna Kurczab-Redlich is well-known Russia-hater. Any Chechen as Russian citisen has right to appeal to courts, to offices of prosecutors, to general Prosecutor, to European Court for Human Right. Mrs. Krystyna Kurczab-Redlich could help to write official complain. Try to find information in the article that all appeals to courts were rejected. so there wasn't any complains. But why?

    Mass grave found on Chechnyen border BBC
    The list is quite honestly endless.


    Maybe Russian soldiers were killed by Russian army?

    It is well known case. I suspect that Chechens were killed by Chechens who backs Federal forces (and it is a real crime). But after very long investigation there are no proof. I agree there this case is very suspicious but without firm proof it is impossibly to bring it to court. And it is possible that ordinary criminals comitted this murder.

    Now KGBr, you still going to sit there and accuse British forces of atrocities in Iraq?

    You understood me in the wrong way. Bad guys are everywhere and war crimes are possible in each army. I puzzled by position of MoD. Instead of fast and faur investigation I see tricky games.