Irans Ahmadinejad casts doubt on Holocaust

#1
http://today.reuters.com/News/newsA...121_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-IRAN-AHMADINEJAD.xml


TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Thursday expressed doubt that the Holocaust occurred and suggested Israel be moved to Europe.

His comments, reported by Iran's official IRNA news agency from a news conference he gave in the Saudi Arabian city of Mecca, follow his call in October for Israel to be "wiped off the map", which sparked widespread international condemnation.

"Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces and they insist on it to the extent that if anyone proves something contrary to that they condemn that person and throw them in jail," IRNA quoted Ahmadinejad as saying.

"Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem?" he said.

"If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe. You offer part of Europe and we will support it."
In other news , rumours abound that David Irving gets offer to write autobiography of undisclosed Middle Eastern Leader..... :roll:
 
#3
Israel retorted...

"It's most regretable that 57 years after the establishment of the state of Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East (So Lebanon and Iraq (he-he) don't count? Does this mean Israel do not recognise the freely elected Government of Iraq?), the president of Iran
has the audacity to claim that Israel has no right to exist," - Ra'anan Gissin, Israeli Prime minister Ariel Sharon's advisor

"When he (President Ahmadinejad) states that Israel should be moved to the places where the Holocaust occurred, he voices ... the consensus that exists in many circles in the Arab world that the Jewish people have no birthright -- they do not have the right to establish a Jewish, democratic state in their ancestral homeland. Just to remind Mr. Ahmadinejad -- we've been here long before his ancestors were here. Therefore, we have a birthright to be here in the land of our forefathers and to live here. Thank God we have the capability to deter and to prevent such a statement from becoming a reality, " Gissin said.

Religious hardliners in Iran do not publicly deny the Holocaust occurred but say its scale has been exaggerated to justify the creation of
Israel and continued Western support for it.
Via reuters....

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#4
While I believe that Hitler tried to annihilate Jewish people I recognise right of others to doubt.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar03.html

Did Simon Wiesenthal once state in writing that "there were no extermination camps on German soil"?

The IHR says (original):

Yes. In Books and Bookmen, April, 1975 issue. He claims the "gassings" of the Jews took place in Poland.

The IHR says (revised):

Yes. The famous "Nazi hunter" wrote this in Stars and Stripes, Jan. 24, 1993. He also claimed that "gassings" of Jews took place only in Poland.

Nizkor replies:

Wiesenthal's 1975 letter to the editor said:

Because there were no extermination camps on German soil the Neo-Nazis are using this as proof that these crimes did not happen [...]

How ironic that he was not only correct, but that those very words were later misused in the manner he described.

Both answers are correct in themselves: Wiesenthal did indeed indicate in 1975 and in 1993 that there were no extermination camps in what is now Germany.
Previously I thought (I was under influence of stereotypes) that gas chambers were usual 'hardware' and all concentration camps were in fact extermination camps.
 
#5
KGB_resident said:
While I believe that Hitler tried to annihilate Jewish people I recognise right of others to doubt.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar03.html

Did Simon Wiesenthal once state in writing that "there were no extermination camps on German soil"?

The IHR says (original):

Yes. In Books and Bookmen, April, 1975 issue. He claims the "gassings" of the Jews took place in Poland.

The IHR says (revised):

Yes. The famous "Nazi hunter" wrote this in Stars and Stripes, Jan. 24, 1993. He also claimed that "gassings" of Jews took place only in Poland.

Nizkor replies:

Wiesenthal's 1975 letter to the editor said:

Because there were no extermination camps on German soil the Neo-Nazis are using this as proof that these crimes did not happen [...]

How ironic that he was not only correct, but that those very words were later misused in the manner he described.

Both answers are correct in themselves: Wiesenthal did indeed indicate in 1975 and in 1993 that there were no extermination camps in what is now Germany.
Previously I thought (I was under influence of stereotypes) that gas chambers were usual 'hardware' and all concentration camps were in fact extermination camps.
I got screamed at,by a very irate Irishman,in my old Bar in Garmisch, trying to explain,very gently that,there were no ´Extermination Camps´in what is now Germany.Gas Chambers were built at Dachau,the first K.Z,but thankfully never used.

However,hanging,shooting starving,torturing,disease,many were injected as guiniepigs,whatever,hundreds of thousands were murdered in Concentration Camps,spread all over Germany;Belsen,Dachau,Ravensbrück(for women!),Dora,the list goes on and on.

It doesn´t really matter,in which country they were murdered,it all happened,and is well documented.Also,many thousands of slave labourers,were worked to death,through little food and cold weather.

The great danger,is in forgetting,or doubting.Then we´re doomed to repeat it.

No Sergey,not all camps were extermination camps,but they weren´t as harmless as people like to make out.

midnight.
 
#7
midnight said:
KGB_resident said:
While I believe that Hitler tried to annihilate Jewish people I recognise right of others to doubt.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar03.html

Did Simon Wiesenthal once state in writing that "there were no extermination camps on German soil"?

The IHR says (original):

Yes. In Books and Bookmen, April, 1975 issue. He claims the "gassings" of the Jews took place in Poland.

The IHR says (revised):

Yes. The famous "Nazi hunter" wrote this in Stars and Stripes, Jan. 24, 1993. He also claimed that "gassings" of Jews took place only in Poland.

Nizkor replies:

Wiesenthal's 1975 letter to the editor said:

Because there were no extermination camps on German soil the Neo-Nazis are using this as proof that these crimes did not happen [...]

How ironic that he was not only correct, but that those very words were later misused in the manner he described.

Both answers are correct in themselves: Wiesenthal did indeed indicate in 1975 and in 1993 that there were no extermination camps in what is now Germany.
Previously I thought (I was under influence of stereotypes) that gas chambers were usual 'hardware' and all concentration camps were in fact extermination camps.
I got screamed at,by a very irate Irishman,in my old Bar in Garmisch, trying to explain,very gently that,there were no ´Extermination Camps´in what is now Germany.Gas Chambers were built at Dachau,the first K.Z,but thankfully never used.

However,hanging,shooting starving,torturing,disease,many were injected as guiniepigs,whatever,hundreds of thousands were murdered in Concentration Camps,spread all over Germany;Belsen,Dachau,Ravensbrück(for women!),Dora,the list goes on and on.

It doesn´t really matter,in which country they were murdered,it all happened,and is well documented.Also,many thousands of slave labourers,were worked to death,through little food and cold weather.

The great danger,is in forgetting,or doubting.Then we´re doomed to repeat it.

No Sergey,not all camps were extermination camps,but they weren´t as harmless as people like to make out.

midnight.
Absolutely agree with you. For me only atrocity in Babyi Yar where almost 30000 Jew were killed with cold blood by nazi beasts is sufficient proof of their human-hating nature.

So for me answer to question about genocide of Jewish people is obvious - it happened. But let hear our imaginary opponent. He could say something like this:

'I doubt, have I right for doubts? If Hitler indeed decided to kill ALL Jews then he no doubt would do it. Posponement of important decisions was not among his habits. If even Simon Wiesenthal doesn't call concentration camps in Germany as extermination camps then can I call them as death camps designed for genocide'

I would replay that Hitler was a sly henchman. He used different methods. For example in Latvia thousand local Jews were frosen to death by local Latvian fascists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2529275.stm

And so on, and so on...

But, and I am firm on this point. Anybody has right to doubt.
 
#11
Awol said:
I personally doubt that everyone has the right to doubt.

Is that what you mean?

8)
As you doubt yourself then you belong (from you point of view) to those who have right to doubt. So you belong to elite that thinks that others are stupid enough to have own opinion. Today you question right to doubt at least for someones and there is only one step from this point for statement (that was a credo of Hitler and Stalin):

<<Nobody has right to doubt.>>

Don't you think that it is right to fight with totalitarism using totalitarian means?

I was born and lived in country (Soviet Union) where I had to speak this way, to think that way without any doubts. So I recognise right to doubt unconditionally.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar37.html

Also, hardly any of the Allied prisoners from Western nations starved to death; there were people that the Nazis wanted to keep alive, and there were people they preferred dead. A great number of Soviet POW's died -- over three million -- for this reason.
Note, they were POWs, only POWs. If you add fallen on battlefields, millions victims among civil population then you can make a conclusion that the main goal of Hitler was extermination of Russian people.
 
#12
KGB_resident said:
Absolutely agree with you. For me only atrocity in Babyi Yar where almost 30000 Jew were killed with cold blood by nazi beasts is sufficient proof of their human-hating nature.
Based on this criteria, does the murder of some 20,000+ Poles in and around Katyn in 1940 similarly mean that the Soviets were 'beasts'?

http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/art6.html

"Those who died at Katyn included an admiral, two generals, 24 colonels, 79 lieutenant colonels, 258 majors, 654 captains, 17 naval captains, 3,420 NCOs, seven chaplains, three landowners, a prince, 43 officials, 85 privates, and 131 refugees. Also among the dead were 20 university professors; 300 physicians; several hundred lawyers, engineers, and teachers; and more than 100 writers and journalists as well as about 200 pilots. It was their social status that landed them in front of NKVD execution squads. Most of the victims were reservists who had been mobilized when Germany invaded. In all, the NKVD eliminated almost half the Polish officer corps--part of Stalin's long-range effort to prevent the resurgence of an independent Poland.

Recent historical research shows that 700-900 of the victims were Polish Jews."

See also here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_Massacre

As for Ahmadinejad's latest pronuncement, doubtless this will be breezily dismissed as just something that he says 'for domestic consumption' - Hitler similarly said a lot about the Jews 'for domestic consumption' during the 1930s, except his words became physical reality at places such as Treblinka, Sobibor, Dachau, Belsen...
 
#13
I wouldn´t like to second guess sergey;I think he means that, doubt is a healthy thing,the more you doubt,the more you search,then comes enlightenment,through your own convictions.

As for the atrocity at Katyn,for well over 40 years,it was believed that the Nazi´s were responsible.Had there have been,no doubt about that,nobody would have bothered to find out.

Keep on doubting Sergey,it´s healthy;Some people say doubt,when they mean total denial,that´s when it becomes dangerous.

Midnight 8)
 
#14
gallowglass said:
Based on this criteria, does the murder of some 20,000+ Poles in and around Katyn in 1940 similarly mean that the Soviets were 'beasts'?
Exactly, it was an atrocity commited by Stalin's henchmen. It was a mass murder made because of political reasons. Stalin wanted to add Polland to his empire and these Polish officers were an obstacle for his criminal objectives.

Fact that they were Polish (some were Jews) is absolutely irrelevant. They were killed mainly because they were officers. By contrast, in Babiy Yar poor victims were killed only because they were Jews. Further, Babiy Yar is only one exmaple among series of similar inhuman acts, while I'm unaware about repetition of Katyn.

http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/katyn_memorial_wall/kmw_D.html

...Dobrzanski Bohdan Bogumil • Dobrzanski Jozef • Dobrzanski Jozef • Dobrzanski Karol • Dobrzanski Zygmunt Jerzy...
Btw, my far relative Juzef Dobrzanski was born in 1787 and as a cavalryman took part in 1812 invasion of Napoleon in Russia. As I'm Polish at 1/4 then what is do you think my attitude to atrocity in Katyn? It is a simple one - my brothers were killed.

As for Ahmadinejad then Israel (it is an official position) doesn't recognise Armenian genocide 1915. Btw, a lot of Armenians live in Iran. So what is a difference between Ahmadinejad and Sharon?
 
#15
Fair enough points Sergey. At the risk of dragging this off topic, what is the attitude to crimes committed during the Soviet era - either against Soviet or other peoples - in Russia today?

My own opinion as to the 'difference' between Sharon and Ahmadinejad is that Sharon can at least guard his tongue - oh, and he doesn't deny that the Holocaust occured. It is disappointing to hear that Israel officially refuses to view the Armenian Genocide as an actual genocide , doubtless due to their friendly relations with Turkey.
 
#16
"Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces and they insist on it to the extent that if anyone proves something contrary to that they condemn that person and throw them in jail," IRNA quoted Ahmadinejad as saying.

"Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem?" he said.

"If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe. You offer part of Europe and we will support it."
"Quick, they're onto us! Shlomo, Yentl, David, Anne, Sara, back in the attic with you - yes, I know you've spent the last 60 years up there - but if they find out we're hiding you 6 million "victims" in order to grab real estate, then there'll be hell to pay! Although we don't in hell, of course, but let's just give those puny little Christians and Muslims something to believe in. Ah, my fellow Yehudi, our plan for world domination is coming to fruition. Now get back in that cellar before I have to pelt you with Jew Gold! Someone grab me a fresh baby, I'm hungry!"

- Top-secret authentic recording played to the Iranian President by chief intelligence chief Georgenad Tenetidjad two weeks ago.
 
#17
gallowglass said:
...what is the attitude to crimes committed during the Soviet era - either against Soviet or other peoples - in Russia today?
I begin with a joke: what is the attitude of modern Egyptians to numerous crimes committed by Pharaons (including a genocide of Jewish people)?

Modern Russian society is becoming more selfish and cynical (alas it is true). Many don't interesting even in Russian history. Many teenagers don't know who is Gorbachev (what has he done for hip-hop? I heard such a question on TV). As to Stalin, of course everybody know him but to youngsters he is like Pharaon.

I suspect that typical Eglish boy knows quite few about genocide of Irish people committed by Cromwell. The UK was involved in many colonial wars in 50's. What is the attitude to crimes committed that time in Great Britain. I think that for majority it is not a great problem. Only educated elite knows facts and is able to make fair estimates.

In Russia, intelligentsia (intellectuals) at least know all important facts and average attitude is strong accusation.

Btw, all fact are now in school textbooks. Stalin's henchmen counted each victim. So now it is known that during Stalin's rule (about 30 years) 677000 were executed for 'counter-revolutionary' or 'anti-soviet' activity. About 3,700,000 political prisoners died in GULAG. Some died because of natural reasons. Some victims were not innocent. For example those who was on German side during WW2, what could they expect? There were many collaborants among Russians, Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians and so on. Whole military regiments were formed from Russians, Latvians, Kalmyks, Crimean Tatars, Chechens and other peoples.

For example all Chechnes and some other peoples were deported from their homelands in 1943. It was a crime of course. But it was a war time. Now we know that Hitler was defeated near Kursk in 1943. And what if not?

It is unable to remade history. We are where we are. Wait 20-30 years and your question would be mostly of academical interest.
 
#20
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/658450.html

"We are waiting for any mistake by Israel against Iran," said Mojtaba Bigdeli, spokesman of Iranian Hezbollah. "For us it means Israel is playing with its existence. They can easily taste it and find out how Iran's response is unique. I promise it will be an unprecedented experience for Israel," he said without elaborating.
I hope that our Israeli friends are not fools and will not make a mistake.
 

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