Interesting view on US casualty figures

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by msr, Mar 22, 2006.

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  1. msr

    msr LE

    In 2004, more soldiers died outside of Iraq and Afghanistan than died inside these two war zones (900 in these zones, 987 outside these zones). The reason is that there are usually a fair number that die every year in training accidents, as well as a small number of illness and suicide. Yet the MSM would make you think that US soldiers are dying at a high number in these zones, and at a significantly higher number than in past years or under past presidents. This is all simlpy outright lies and distortio

    http://www.redstate.com/story/2006/3/20/21940/0381

    msr
     
  2. That was the same with us in NI. More squaddies were killed in traffic accidents outside NI than were killed in NI. Mind you, non terrorist related incidents accounted for most of the squaddie deaths in NI. The IRA didn't need to shoot us, we were too busy shooting ourselves, our mates and rolling cars over.
     
  3. Another bit of numbers trivia..

    the number of American soldiers killed in Iraq in 3 years of ' occupation ' totals some 2100 and a bit.. this equals the total number of American soldiers killed in just one month, May of 1968, in VietNam.
     
  4. All fair enough. What gets me though is when people say 'the army isn't THAT dangerous - you've got more chance of being killed in a car accident etc etc'. That may be true - but being a squaddie doesn't make you immune to such accidents. The risks you take in an Operational Theatre are in addition to those that everyone faces on a day to day basis. If over half your losses happen in a training rather than operational environment all that proves is that 50% of your dead squaddies would be alive were it not for the Op(s) in question. If around 1000 US Soldiers die in accidents or of natural causes each year then in 2004 Iraq and Afghanistan almost doubled the death rate.
     
  5. Biscuits mate, you are way out! Have a look at Soldiers killed in NI, it's running in the History page! If you need names, dates numbers etc, ask me and I will do my best! I have the NIVA stats on my desk in front of me, plus "Soldiers Died". It covers the full casualty list for the Falklands and NI.
     
  6. Word like "anchor" comes to mind!
     
  7. Memory says that apart from the 'occasional' year in early 70s the Brit army shot or blew up more of it's own, in negligent discharges suicides or explosives incedents.
    The army stopped widely publishing the firgures from the insureance scheme in mid 90s.
    john
     
  8. From the Telegraph---

    More GIs die seeking thrills on motorbikes than in Afghanistan
    By Nicholas Wapshott in New York
    (Filed: 19/02/2006)

    More American servicemen have died in motorcycle accidents on home soil since September 11 2001, than in operations in Afghanistan.

    The Pentagon, which disclosed the statistics, blamed the crashes on personnel seeking to recreate the thrill of battle by clambering aboard a high-speed machine and heading out onto America's freeways.

    The crashes have claimed 350 soldiers' lives compared with 259 fatalities in Operation Enduring Freedom, the campaign to bring stability to Afghanistan after the removal of the Taliban.

    The United States military is so alarmed at the rising number of deaths - especially at a time when recruitment has been affected by continued fatalities in Iraq, where 2,273 have died - that it has ordered GIs to undertake counselling on how to adjust to the slower pace of life back home. Free road safety courses are also on offer.

    Service chiefs blame the deaths on the mix of "adrenaline, testosterone and boredom" that soldiers often struggle with on their return to the US.

    After tours of duty in countries bereft of opportunities to spend their pay, many young servicemen use their bulging bank balances to treat themselves to motorcycles faster and more powerful than they can handle.

    "It is the returning soldier's mentality," said Cliff Capps, of the Army Combat Readiness Centre at Fort Rucker, Alabama, which monitors accidents to servicemen.

    "You spend a year in combat, getting shot at, escaping death. When you get back, you've got a pocketful of money. So you get a fast car or motorcycle."

    A spokesman for the centre said one army biker he met had likened the thrill to "legalised crack cocaine". He added: "They say it gives them the same adrenaline rush they get driving their tank through Baghdad."

    The very fearlessness that can make a good soldier can be a lethal shortcoming in a young man who has just bought a motorbike capable of 175mph.

    Behind the safety campaign is Lt Gen James F Amos, the commanding general of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. He said: "Their mentality seems to be, 'I've faced death and I'm OK with it'. There is a sense of fearlessness. 'I'm a little bit bullet-proof'.

    "We don't want to change that. We want them to control that risk, learn to temper that risk-taking when they are on motorcycles."

    It is not the first time that US military personnel have used motorcycles to recreate the thrills of battle. The prototypes of the Hells Angels gangs of the 1960s were formed in the main by bored airmen from the Second World War who banded together in the 1950s.
     
  9. I am not sure what these statirstics prove beyond the US capability to lose a war while sustaining low casualties toi themselkves.

    One of the big crtiicisms of the US performance in Iraq is that they have put the lives of their own troops over the lives of the civilian population we have supposed to be liberating.
     
  10. I suspect Biccies is referring to latter days and not the hot years of early 70s. I can confirm that own goals were not all that high in 70-73.
    Losses from own stupidity are not new. Way back in Canal Zone in 51-53 the ND and TA toll was higher than the IS situation was claiming. Mainly tps with - in those days - revolvers playing quick draw John Wayne rather than bad drills/faulty weapons
     
  11. Could you post the figures for NI please. It would be interesting to see if they give an account of the circumstances of death, i.e. RTA, Terrorist related murder, suicide, etc.

    Have you also got the total figures and circumstances of death for theatres outside NI, i.e Germany, Canada, Cyprus etc.

    I'd like to see how 'way out' I am. I can't be bothered to do the work myself, so as you have the figures on your desk, could you do the honours. Basically what I'm looking for is a table which says how many were killed by the PIRA or INLA (in any theatre) versus how many died in other circumstances (less natural causes obvioulsy). Don't include the Falklands though, that is a seperate matter, I am only concerned with the period referred to as 'The Troubles'.

    Thanks


    (ORC weren't you serving in N Ireland around the same time as a certain Dutchman? :lol: )
     
  12. This report has received a bit of a slagging in some quarters for ignoring the reduction in size of the US forces and the drop in training accidents in the timeframe under discussion:

    http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/008312.php#comments

    The report referenced above claims that what has actually happened is a drop in the training accident rate counterbalanced by an increase in the death rate as a result of hostilities.

    Three ways to lie, lies, damned lies and statistics ....
     
  13. I would certainly abhor the thought of casualty figures being somehow manipulated for any form of political gain ...

    but ....

    I dont think it'll be of much comfort to the families of these casualties, however they bought the farm that its "not as dangerous as they're making out"

    and my dying words certainly wouldnt be "goodness, that was unlucky ... its much more dangerous at home"

    I know sometimes we can look on these figures differently to other groups, somehow more "objectively" but a death is a death is a death..... everything else is just statistics and we all know what they are.
     
  14. Biscuits, As you can imagine, far too many for me to post! See them all with the info you require on, www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.org
    Again, you can also try googling suuton cain index for security forces and civvie lists. It,s all there mate.
     
  15. Well if you are not prepared to prove your allegation that I am 'way out', then shut the f*ck up. How can you say that I am wrong when you provide only half the evidence. I'm bolloxed if I'm going to do the work for you.

    From what I did read in that link, I assume that you too will have noticed that there are 'one or two' duplicates amongst those figures, i.e., E3 Dog Handlers being recorded under both RAVC and RRF lists and that the crew of the Puma were killed as a result of an 'accident' as was their passenger.

    PS. I don't want to speak to anyones mum so don't PM me please with an invitation. It proves f*ck all.