Interesting Documentary next Wednesday

S

syledis

Guest
#1
Next wednesday Channel 4 are showing a 2 part documentary called Make bradford British, and it will be interesting to see who its going to upset as the name itself is confrontational.

They have done the usual mixing of different peoples of different races to see what happens, and im curious to see how willing people really are to integrate.

heres a link to the website

Make Bradford British - Features - Home - Channel 4

There is a citizenship test on it, which i failed, so i better pack my bags!!

Worth a watch methinks
 
#2
I can't help but think that if the locals had made a bit more of an effort to make the first incomers feel like British in the first place instead of refusing any and all contact with the scary-different, a lot of this could have been avoided.

It takes two to integrate. One can't do it on their own.
 
#3
I can't help but think that if the locals had made a bit more of an effort to make the first incomers feel like British in the first place instead of refusing any and all contact with the scary-different, a lot of this could have been avoided.

It takes two to integrate. One can't do it on their own.

Well spoken!
 
T

Tremaine

Guest
#4
"Make Bradford British". Saw a clip of this last night and heard one Bantam lass say "she's beautiful but she'll never be one of us". Quite. Maybe she gets the irony of that remark when she watches it back.
 
#5
I can't help but think that if the locals had made a bit more of an effort to make the first incomers feel like British in the first place instead of refusing any and all contact with the scary-different, a lot of this could have been avoided.

It takes two to integrate. One can't do it on their own.
Have you ever been to Bradford? Genuine question
 
#6
I've been to Bradford - Mrs H_M 1st hails from those parts; half the people who post on here make it out to be the new capital of Pakistan - it isn't. Unfortunately, the one ethnic group in the city that seem to get the media's attention are Pakistani's. There are certainly massive problems in Bradford, but if the city is ever to shake off it's dire reputation then it's economy needs to be regenerated.
 
#7
Have you ever been to Bradford? Genuine question
Yep. I stand by my comment, it takes two to tango and the 'indigenous' locals are reaping the harvest of the example they set all those generations ago.

Refusing to have any contact with anyone outside their own group? Sounds like those immigrants have adopted British ways right enough.
 
#8
Hasn't this been on before? I remember finding it quite interesting and not the freak show you expect from C4. Some fantastic parts where people genuinely began to empathise with their neighbours and both sides began to reassess their definition of British. The worst bits was a rather strict Muslim gentleman who stayed with an elderly British couple (straight out of keeping up appearances). The wife, let's call her Mrs Bucket, was bossy, self centred and unwelcoming in exactly the way one expects from that type of lady whilst the Muslim gent walked out because he was fed up with being told what to do and then faced questions about why he wouldn't let his daughter marry a white feller. To be honest it was such a contrast from the warmth and understanding that appeared with the other groups that I suspect it was a bit of a set-up designed to add controversy to the program.

Worth watching I thought. Oh, and I agree with the comments about taking two to integrate. Only today I've seen several people post pictures of crusaders on their Facebook profiles whilst complaining about unintegrated immigrants. Oh dear.
 
#9
Yep. I stand by my comment, it takes two to tango and the 'indigenous' locals are reaping the harvest of the example they set those generations ago.

Refusing to have any contact with anyone outside their own group? Sounds like those immigrants have adopted British ways right enough.

The problem doesn't just come from generations ago.

The problem now is the massive increase in immigrant population in the last decade or so. There is virtually no hope of assimilating the immigrant population into the idigenous society of previous generations.
It's not just Bradford, there are lots of towns with the same problem.
I spend a lot of work time in towns across Lancashire and Yorkshire, mant of them have large populations of non English speaking immigrants who have no interest in integration.
Its not even particularly a race thing, its cultural. Indian's always make an effort to be pleasant, Pakistani's usually don't.

There is a basic issue with small to medium size towns, people don't like outsiders. In years gone by it didn't really matter, until there was an influx of thousands of migrants.
Had these migrants been even vaguely similar to the host population (language, religious beliefs, diet and yes even skin colour) then integration might have been possible if the numbers were relatively small. But the numbers aren't small.

Its less to do with race and more to do with deluging the locals with outsiders. Where the numbers are small there are far less issues. The biggest influence race has is that its really easy to spot the incomers.
Similar issues occur now with the influs of eastern europeans, the major differences are that the eastern europeans look the same as us and don't build great big mosques all over the place.
The eastern europeans don't integrate much more than the Pakistani's do, they are just not as easy to spot.

You only have to look at the generations of problems in Ulster to see the problem we have created for our children and grandchildren. In Ulster they are all the same colour and worship the same god but have managed to dislike each other since the dawn of time. Mass immigration has pretty much gauranteed similar problems are going to occur across large parts of England in the coming years.

Most people do not like the unfamiliar, transplanting thousands of foreigners into small British towns was never going to work. It wouldn't work anywhere really.
It is not the fault of the indiginous population. They didn't get a say.

This is the direct result of having a Labour government with too many second generation migrants with a chip on their shoulders. Multi culturism doesn't work. It will never work, it simply isn't in the nature of people.
 
#10
The problem doesn't just come from generations ago.

The problem now is the massive increase in immigrant population in the last decade or so. There is virtually no hope of assimilating the immigrant population into the idigenous society of previous generations.
It's not just Bradford, there are lots of towns with the same problem.
I spend a lot of work time in towns across Lancashire and Yorkshire, mant of them have large populations of non English speaking immigrants who have no interest in integration.
Its not even particularly a race thing, its cultural. Indian's always make an effort to be pleasant, Pakistani's usually don't.
Good job Indians and Pakistanis wear badges telling you where they come from, it makes it significantly easier to make generalisations like that!


Most people do not like the unfamiliar, transplanting thousands of foreigners into small British towns was never going to work. It wouldn't work anywhere really.
It is not the fault of the indiginous population. They didn't get a say.
So you think that before anyone can come into a country they should have permission from the locals? How about when people moving into your county/borough, do they need permission from the indigenous population? I'm sorry but I don't see that where I choose to live is any of your concern, as long as I contribute to society why should you or any other so called 'indigenous population' get to say how I live my life?


This is the direct result of having a Labour government with too many second generation migrants with a chip on their shoulders. Multi culturism doesn't work. It will never work, it simply isn't in the nature of people.
Ahh, yes, because immigrants have never come into the uk, contributed to society and integrated whilst maintaining elements of their own culture. Blatant nonsense I'm afraid. Multiculturalism only fails when people start to get prissy about keeping everything exactly the way it was when they were young. As for the 'nature of people' well 100 years ago it was the firm belief of most it was clearly understood by most that it wasn't in women's nature to get involved in politics, work or take responsibility for more than childcare and baking, 200 years ago the idea that working class men were capable of forming political views or getting involved in the running of the country was outrageous, before that the very idea that it was 'in the nature of people' to be much more than cattle providing for their social betters was frankly laughable. There is no such thing as the 'nature of people,' only 'the way we expect people to behave right now' and that changes as time goes by.

People said exactly e same about west Indians in the 1960s and before that the Irish (my father well remembers the 'no tradesmen, no Irish' signs on peoples doors). The same people complaining about mosques now would have been complaining about catholic churches 150 years ago. Nothing new.

Edit: as an aside, if multiculturalism doesn't work what is the answer? Stop immigration? What about the people who are already here? Kick them out? Dodgy to say the least! Whether it works or not I'm afraid we have it and we need to find a way of making it work. Frankly encouraging the British to be more welcoming and immigrants to integrate better might be a damn sight easier than rounding up everyone who's family haven't lived here for 200 years and sticking them on p&o!
 
#11
Good job Indians and Pakistanis wear badges telling you where they come from, it makes it significantly easier to make generalisations like that!


Easy enough to tell the difference when you talk to them

So you think that before anyone can come into a country they should have permission from the locals? How about when people moving into your county/borough, do they need permission from the indigenous population? I'm sorry but I don't see that where I choose to live is any of your concern, as long as I contribute to society why should you or any other so called 'indigenous population' get to say how I live my life?


Yes, if you are foreign then the indiginous population should get a say. We aren't talking about people moving from one town to another, we are taliking about people moving into this country. Nice atempt to change the debate though

Ahh, yes, because immigrants have never come into the uk, contributed to society and integrated whilst maintaining elements of their own culture. Blatant nonsense I'm afraid. Multiculturalism only fails when people start to get prissy about keeping everything exactly the way it was when they were young. As for the 'nature of people' well 100 years ago it was the firm belief of most it was clearly understood by most that it wasn't in women's nature to get involved in politics, work or take responsibility for more than childcare and baking, 200 years ago the idea that working class men were capable of forming political views or getting involved in the running of the country was outrageous, before that the very idea that it was 'in the nature of people' to be much more than cattle providing for their social betters was frankly laughable. There is no such thing as the 'nature of people,' only 'the way we expect people to behave right now' and that changes as time goes by.

Of course immgrants have come and gone, but never on the same scale as in the last decade (discounting Roman and Norman invasions)

People said exactly e same about west Indians in the 1960s and before that the Irish (my father well remembers the 'no tradesmen, no Irish' signs on peoples doors). Nothing new.

My bold

Multi-culturism does not work. That is plain for everyone to see.
 
#12
It is not the fault of the indiginous population. They didn't get a say.
I'd disagree. It's easy enough to play the role of Irish farmer giving directions and say, "Oh, I wouldn't start from here if I were you" but we are where we are and it's a refusal to face the reality on the ground that allowed the problem to fester and ultimately develop to the point these people see no connection between themselves and their wider communities. They're there and they could have been made British, except that the locals insisted on not having to do the heavy lifting of integration for themselves.

Most people don't like the unfamiliar and most people don't like change but they're faced with it on a daily basis - it's called life. If they'd chosen to just get on with things when the numbers were still small, there wouldn't be this ghetto mentality amongst people who've never been allowed into the communities they were settled with. They weren't given a choice in the matter either.

Where I live, there are plenty of South Asians, predominantly Pakistani or Bangladeshi. They're happy enough to pass the time of day with anyone, regardless of background and I've never experienced any problems with them. If it was a generic problem of where they come from, that'd not be the case.
 
#13
Multi-culturism does not work. That is plain for everyone to see.
No it's not. It can't be made to work while some insist on poking their noses into the private business of others to see that they're doing things 'the way we do them round here', but to say it can't work is not accurate. We are and have always been a multicultural nation. Different laws, different languages, different religions, different folk-ways and beliefs, etc.

If someone acts within the law then what they do is no business of mine or anyone else's, any more than what I do within the law is any of theirs.
 
#15
No it's not. It can't be made to work while some insist on poking their noses into the private business of others to see that they're doing things 'the way we do them round here', but to say it can't work is not accurate. We are and have always been a multicultural nation. Different laws, different languages, different religions, different folk-ways and beliefs, etc.

If someone acts within the law then what they do is no business of mine or anyone else's, any more than what I do within the law is any of theirs.
Sorry I should clarify a little
Multi-culturism cannot work when you try to import hundreds of thousands of immigrants at the same time with values and culture massively different to our own.
On a small scale it can work, on the massive scale we have seen in the last decade, no chance at all.

Time will prove which one of us is right!
 
#16
Not trying to change the debate Jagman, we are talking about a principle here, you say that when people want to move from one area to another the locals should be consulted, particularly if the migrants have a different culture. Why does this principle not apply for Irish people moving in to England? Or southeners moving up north?

As for your unsupported claims about multiculturalism, you can see it work wherever you see an immigrant getting on with their life without bothering anyone, so all over the place really. As I edited my original post to say, we have it, now we have to make it work and the community as a whole would be better served if people accepted that and started working on it. The problem seems to come down to fear on both sides, shouldn't we man up and deal with that?

As for the Pakistanis vs Indians thing, please, how do you tell? Having worked in a school with a massive Asian population 80%+) and despite having access to reams of information about the kids and their families I find it impossible to tell without actually checking the 'ethnic origin' records.
 
#17
Not trying to change the debate Jagman, we are talking about a principle here, you say that when people want to move from one area to another the locals should be consulted, particularly if the migrants have a different culture. Why does this principle not apply for Irish people moving in to England? Or southeners moving up north?

Because the culture of the Irish or Southerners moving north is far closer to that of the locals.
For what its worth, there are long standing problems and dislikes in the northern counties of England about sourtherners moving into the area but I suppose thats another subject


As for your unsupported claims about multiculturalism, you can see it work wherever you see an immigrant getting on with their life without bothering anyone, so all over the place really. As I edited my original post to say, we have it, now we have to make it work and the community as a whole would be better served if people accepted that and started working on it. The problem seems to come down to fear on both sides, shouldn't we man up and deal with that?

If my claims are baseless, why are we having this debate in the forst place and why are Channel 4 bothering to make a documentary? The problem exists and its massive, my opinions on it are clearly of my own invention but the problem itself is plain for everyone to see

As for the Pakistanis vs Indians thing, please, how do you tell? Having worked in a school with a massive Asian population 80%+) and despite having access to reams of information about the kids and their families I find it impossible to tell without actually checking the 'ethnic origin' records.

I ask. I'm quite obnoxious that way, whenever I encounter somebody new at work of the immigrant variety I enquire into their background. Nobody ever seems to mind.
I have a small advantage, I work in food ditribution so there is a large hint (although obviously no infallible) with the nature of foodstuff we are collecting or delivering. The sign above the door tends to be a giveaway too.
My bold
Sorry for delaying reply, a little distracted watching lots of Guardsmen on the telly
 
#18
I guess it depends how we define 'problem' in that as far as I can see the problem with multiculturalism is that some people don't want it. Well, that isn't a problem with multiculturalism per se but rather a problem with our attitudes to it. Attitudes change, what we need to do is ensure that peoples attitudes to other cultures change in the same way as their attitudes to women, democracy or serfdom have. Let's face it, what is the alternative to multiculturalism?

I take your point on asking, to be honest I'd not call that obnoxious, I can't help but think that if people took a bit more benign interest in the cultures and background of others we might not be having this debate. I find it rather frustrating that it can be embarrassing to ask about another persons culture and lifestyle, oh well.
 
#19
Having lived in an area with a large number of Asians, I can tell the difference between Indians and Pakis about 80% of the time. Dress, religious symbols, accessories. The average trendy middle class lefty college educated diversity wallah would have difficulty telling a Paki from a West Indian.
 

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