Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

[Danny_Dravot]

Do the RMP investigate every allegation against AFA06?

No, far from it....hence my earlier comments about NDs, sleeping on stag, other relatively trivial charges etc which IME made up the majority of SHs.

 

[Danny_Dravot]

Post-AFA06 there is a strange anomaly in that, as ATG correctly states, on an RAF station the Station Commander alone has the powers of CO. On ops though squadron/wing commanders can be classed as COs depending on the operational CoC. I certainly had the powers of CO in Afghanistan which I didn’t have in the UK.

Danny is incorrect that unit/sub-unit command is common joint terminology, it’s an Army thing Any usage it has in the RAF is to help the Army understand.

First para - this is not unusual and is the same in other organisations where there is a designated station / Garrison CO who is responsible for discipline and other admin matters etc.

Second para, I have been line manager to three cohorts of RAF officers (in jt units) who have each used this vernacular, and indeed I have used it on their OJAR recommendations - it has not been challenged. Perhaps it has crept in?

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

Unless it's accredited to store and handle the appropriate security classification, no

Really? I didn't realise that security of PMM extended to cars when they were occupied and in motion?

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

First para - this is not unusual and is the same in other organisations where there is a designated station / Garrison CO who is responsible for discipline and other admin matters etc.

Second para, I have been line manager to three cohorts of RAF officers (in jt units) who have each used this vernacular, and indeed I have used it on their OJAR recommendations - it has not been challenged. Perhaps it has crept in?

Every soldier must have a CO and he must know who his CO is. If he's not in a unit that merits a CO then the CO of the Garrison or Station Sp Unit will be his CO or another OF4 with powers of CO will be designated as his CO. Note that ( until recently) the CO of the Sp Unit was not the Garrison Commander - that would have been vested at OF5 level with 1* powers delegated to that individual. It's different now that the administrative and operational CoCs are aligned.

If you are a 'sub-unit' level commander (OF2/3) you are not a CO and you won't have CO's powers unless they are delegated to you (see Regtl 2IC with CO on leave etc). Surely that's the same for the RAF?

Might have changed but I can't think why?

 

[jrwlynch]

Really? I didn't realise that security of PMM extended to cars when they were occupied and in motion?

Security of PMM never stops... the attention required, depends on just how marked the material is.

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

Security of PMM never stops... the attention required, depends on just how marked the material is.

Absolutely, but I don't think it means you can't work on PMM when a passenger in a car? Happy for a security Nazi to prove me wrong of course.

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

Security of PMM never stops... the attention required, depends on just how marked the material is.

Absolutely, but I don't think it means you can't work on PMM when a passenger in a car? Happy for a security Nazi to prove me wrong of course.

ETA: I'm speaking as one who flew from Qatar to Kuwait in March 2003 in a civvy jet with a CD-ROM containing the Master Air Attack Plan for the invasion of Iraq in his hand baggage...

 

[wetsmonkey]

Absolutely, but I don't think it means you can't work on PMM when a passenger in a car? Happy for a security Nazi to prove me wrong of course.

ETA: I'm speaking as one who flew from Qatar to Kuwait in March 2003 in a civvy jet with a CD-ROM containing the Master Air Attack Plan for the invasion of Iraq in his hand baggage...

By mistake or on purpose?

 

[Filthy_contract]

Where the Services are skating on thin ice is when administrative sanctions are imposed (immediate posting, reproves of behaviour etc). A decent employment solicitor is able to knock holes in many of these J1 actions as punitive and without proper process.

And example - one that some of you will be familiar with - was a senior RAF officer and former Arrser, who was accused 10 years ago of being negligent of failing to secure his DII laptop in a secure area of MOD, when it was taken by an unvetted, unescorted temporary cleaner. He was interviewed by MDP (who regarded it as a simple - but worrying - theft) and then by RAF SIB. I understand he took a decent solicitor to this interview who challenged the assertions made by the investigators so the disciplinary aspect was dropped. He was then accused by CoC of leaking the story to the media (it first broke in NOTW and then the Times of India) and he was administratively posted away from MOD within 24 hours and his next tour - a Command appointment - was reviewed and withdrawn. In stead he was sent to a backwaters NATO tour. None of these later actions were subject to independent scrutiny and involved 2* direction against A1 policy, and it caused him huge personal disruption and he had his character impugned.

Fast forward a couple of years and 'Deep Throat' within the MOD who had been leaking stories to Rebekah Brookes of NOTW for money - a lot of money - was charged, convicted and sentenced to 12 months in prison. The leaker was a G6, married to a still-serving Lt Col. My colleague immediately sought an apology from CAS for his shabby treatment, and the restoration of a decent Command tour. He received neither and knowing that his career was over, he moved to the FCO.

I know the individual quite well and was in MOD at the time and all of us with DII laptops had 'squeaky cheeks' moments and were shocked at the punitive treatment. He is still very bitter about and regrets that h didn't go very public with it at the time, and with a decent solicitor.

I chuckle at how TG17 and Pers branch officers in the RAF and SPS/AGC types brand themselves as HR specialists. They are not!

 

[jrwlynch]

Absolutely, but I don't think it means you can't work on PMM when a passenger in a car? Happy for a security Nazi to prove me wrong of course.

ETA: I'm speaking as one who flew from Qatar to Kuwait in March 2003 in a civvy jet with a CD-ROM containing the Master Air Attack Plan for the invasion of Iraq in his hand baggage...

I think that's one of the "don't do" examples from the "Full Circle" video...

 

[Alamo]

Second para, I have been line manager to three cohorts of RAF officers (in jt units) who have each used this vernacular, and indeed I have used it on their OJAR recommendations - it has not been challenged. Perhaps it has crept in?

If they have done I suspect it was for your benefit. We understand what it means but it has no resonance internally (my OF3-level command was an independent sqn, which was a ‘unit’ in and of itself). When I was attached to Army bns we were referred to as a sub-unit, and all understood what was being said, but it meant nothing in RAF terms.

 

[Danny_Dravot]

If they have done I suspect it was for your benefit. We understand what it means but it has no resonance internally (my OF3-level command was an independent sqn, which was a ‘unit’ in and of itself). When I was attached to Army bns we were referred to as a sub-unit, and all understood what was being said, but it meant nothing in RAF terms.

fair enough

 

[CrazyLegs!]

Where the Services are skating on thin ice is when administrative sanctions are imposed (immediate posting, reproves of behaviour etc). A decent employment solicitor is able to knock holes in many of these J1 actions as punitive and without proper process.

And example - one that some of you will be familiar with - was a senior RAF officer and former Arrser, who was accused 10 years ago of being negligent of failing to secure his DII laptop in a secure area of MOD, when it was taken by an unvetted, unescorted temporary cleaner. He was interviewed by MDP (who regarded it as a simple - but worrying - theft) and then by RAF SIB. I understand he took a decent solicitor to this interview who challenged the assertions made by the investigators so the disciplinary aspect was dropped. He was then accused by CoC of leaking the story to the media (it first broke in NOTW and then the Times of India) and he was administratively posted away from MOD within 24 hours and his next tour - a Command appointment - was reviewed and withdrawn. In stead he was sent to a backwaters NATO tour. None of these later actions were subject to independent scrutiny and involved 2* direction against A1 policy, and it caused him huge personal disruption and he had his character impugned.

Fast forward a couple of years and 'Deep Throat' within the MOD who had been leaking stories to Rebekah Brookes of NOTW for money - a lot of money - was charged, convicted and sentenced to 12 months in prison. The leaker was a G6, married to a still-serving Lt Col. My colleague immediately sought an apology from CAS for his shabby treatment, and the restoration of a decent Command tour. He received neither and knowing that his career was over, he moved to the FCO.

I know the individual quite well and was in MOD at the time and all of us with DII laptops had 'squeaky cheeks' moments and were shocked at the punitive treatment. He is still very bitter about and regrets that h didn't go very public with it at the time, and with a decent solicitor.

I chuckle at how TG17 and Pers branch officers in the RAF and SPS/AGC types brand themselves as HR specialists. They are not!

a very sad tale, and it’s a shame he didn’t get the justice he deserves (and isn’t on arrse any more to tell us all about it)

 

[Caecilius]

Absolutely, but I don't think it means you can't work on PMM when a passenger in a car? Happy for a security Nazi to prove me wrong of course.

Depends on the marking. Some stuff can be worked on in a car but at the more sensitive end the material needs to remain sealed in a locked container during transit.

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

By mistake or on purpose?

Definitely on purpose - on my way to brief GOC 1 Div!

 

[wetsmonkey]

Definitely on purpose - on my way to brief GOC 1 Div!

Slack.

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

Slack.

I prefer to call it intelligent disobedience.

 

[wetsmonkey]

I prefer to call it intelligent disobedience.

Is that an Officer mitigation phrase? Reduces a criminal record to a champagne fine.

 

[Danny_Dravot]

Depends on the marking. Some stuff can be worked on in a car but at the more sensitive end the material needs to remain sealed in a locked container during transit.

to be fair the Army over classifies everything...but is amazingly indiscrete in other areas

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

Is that an Officer mitigation phrase? Reduces a criminal record to a champagne fine.

Go on, jail me.

I've had my share of discipline as an officer so I'm afraid I still don't recognise your narrative!