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Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

Is this where I queue up to join the Officer bashing thread?
 
I left just before AGAI came in, Feb 07, does it have a burden of proof standard, and can it be refused for more formal justice, does it leave a civilian record?
Balance of Probability and “has the action of the individual undermined the effectiveness of the unit “ or something like that. Apply the Service Test.
AGAI can be reviewed up the chain, but I don’t think you can opt for CM. (Been a few years now). Given that Major AGAI can result in things like stoppage of promotion or removal from post it would be included on a Service Record but wouldn’t show up on DBS etc
 
Balance of Probability and “has the action of the individual undermined the effectiveness of the unit “ or something like that. Apply the Service Test.
AGAI can be reviewed up the chain, but I don’t think you can opt for CM. (Been a few years now). Given that Major AGAI can result in things like stoppage of promotion or removal from post it would be included on a Service Record but wouldn’t show up on DBS etc
MAA sanctions include termination of service. Most commonly used for CDT, but can also be used in conjunction with civilian disciplinary cases. Its a complex area, but for example, somebody may have committed a criminal offence and received a "light" punishment by civil courts, but the actions are deemed to be significantly detrimental to the operational effectiveness or reputation of the military, such that discharge is recommended. A proper double whammy.
 
Balance of Probability and “has the action of the individual undermined the effectiveness of the unit “ or something like that. Apply the Service Test.
AGAI can be reviewed up the chain, but I don’t think you can opt for CM. (Been a few years now). Given that Major AGAI can result in things like stoppage of promotion or removal from post it would be included on a Service Record but wouldn’t show up on DBS etc
Full details here
 
MAA sanctions include termination of service. Most commonly used for CDT, but can also be used in conjunction with civilian disciplinary cases. Its a complex area, but for example, somebody may have committed a criminal offence and received a "light" punishment by civil courts, but the actions are deemed to be significantly detrimental to the operational effectiveness or reputation of the military, such that discharge is recommended. A proper double whammy.
I did lots of minor AGAI but only one Major. An LCLP on her trade language course got done for drink driving. Fine and ban by the Court as normal. After consultation with Legal and further up the CoC she received an 18 month seniority stop. The net effect of this was that she’d likely be at least one year behind her cohort when looking at her second and possibly two given that getting the second tape in that trade group is fairly automatic (and the rights or wrongs of that are not for this thread). The thinking was that after that any catching up or further lost ground would be entirely on merit and on the hands of the individual.
I reviewed a minor sanction at the request of the individual. An RAF Police Cpl who had engaged in inappropriate message exchanges with a female Siggie on his course. He wasn’t happy with the sanction (can’t recall what it was now). I was there to check the OC’s process and proportionality both of which I was happy with. I think his only recourse after that would have been Service Complaint. He chose not to go any further.
 
Hmmm

Not so sure about that

I was dealing with RTAs as a discipline issue up to the middle of 2010. But as you say, that's because there was a case to answer.

But then the widespread use of AGAI action probably looked, to some, a whole lot easier to do.

Inevitably, in dealing summarily, the need to gather and present solid evidence might present challenges to some organisations, But doing so is in the very best interests of the accused.

When I did my defence transport manager course in 2005 and the subsequent MTO tour, simply being involved in an RTA, didn’t constitute an offence.
Conversely when my Landrover was rear ended just outside Ripon in 1991, completely not my fault, I had to go in front of the OC for the case to be dismissed.

I completely accept it’s probably a burden of proof thing, however, it’s still a long time since bumping a vehicle automatically equaled disciplinary action.
 

Fabius Maximus

Old-Salt
I don’t think anyone can deny, that for a significant period of time, the military have had a 2 tier justice system, with commissioned and other ranks often being treated differently.

It would appear that often officers have been dealt with informally and avoided official and lasting sanction, but in some cases appear to be dealt with more harshly in terms of career prospects ongoing. ORs appear to generally receive more official treatment but it doesn’t always appear to damage their careers.

These are obviously quite general observations. However my 24 year RMP career supports it.

My personal opinion is that a justice system of any type that is seen to be based on who or what you are, rather than what you have done isn’t particularly fair, for either tier and should where possible be as standard as possible.

My opinion.
Look back on your 24 years and think about the clear bifurcation in types of crimes - how many Officers got into scraps on a Saturday night, and how many Soldiers committed white collar crimes like fraud? I know there are examples of each doing t’other, but the overall trends in types of crime lean towards different sentences - violent crimes mean custodial sentences, non-violent crimes do not.
 

Truxx

LE
When I did my defence transport manager course in 2005 and the subsequent MTO tour, simply being involved in an RTA, didn’t constitute an offence.
Conversely when my Landrover was rear ended just outside Ripon in 1991, completely not my fault, I had to go in front of the OC for the case to be dismissed.

I completely accept it’s probably a burden of proof thing, however, it’s still a long time since bumping a vehicle automatically equaled disciplinary action.
You are right, it is a long time, but, like anything else, circumstances driven.

But the AGAI option has watered down the need for proper investigation.
 
When I did my defence transport manager course in 2005 and the subsequent MTO tour, simply being involved in an RTA, didn’t constitute an offence.
Conversely when my Landrover was rear ended just outside Ripon in 1991, completely not my fault, I had to go in front of the OC for the case to be dismissed.

I completely accept it’s probably a burden of proof thing, however, it’s still a long time since bumping a vehicle automatically equaled disciplinary action.

What was the charge in 1991? I got bounced for a trailer reversing accident that was down to no-one else (wet boot slipped off clutch pedal in a Rover), and I think I was charged with negligently performing a duty. It was 30-odd years ago, so might not have the charge right, but definitely "negligence" was alleged.

As an aside, if it was today, I would have them Court Martial me for it, then I could explain the lethal polished bare metal pedals and ridiculously shit boots we had at the time were as much to blame as my haste to back up the Rover. But I was a mere NIG and just copped a small fine.

But what would the charge be where the driver's done nothing wrong? "Cpl CAARPS, you are charged that you did, on or about sometime in 1991 at RIPON, did, erm, do fvck all, and got rear ended, occasioning damage to the tune of £12.83 to a military vehicle". Doesn't seem like it'd pass muster to me.
 

Truxx

LE
What was the charge in 1991? I got bounced for a trailer reversing accident that was down to no-one else (wet boot slipped off clutch pedal in a Rover), and I think I was charged with negligently performing a duty. It was 30-odd years ago, so might not have the charge right, but definitely "negligence" was alleged.

As an aside, if it was today, I would have them Court Martial me for it, then I could explain the lethal polished bare metal pedals and ridiculously shit boots we had at the time were as much to blame as my haste to back up the Rover. But I was a mere NIG and just copped a small fine.

But what would the charge be where the driver's done nothing wrong? "Cpl CAARPS, you are charged that you did, on or about sometime in 1991 at RIPON, did, erm, do fvck all, and got rear ended, occasioning damage to the tune of £12.83 to a military vehicle". Doesn't seem like it'd pass muster to me.
90+% of accidents are due to the driver/ operator not doing what they should have done. Occasionally there are mechanical failures not attributable to human error. Even rarer still nature intervenes.

No driver/operator error, no charge. Simples
 
90+% of accidents are due to the driver/ operator not doing what they should have done. Occasionally there are mechanical failures not attributable to human error. Even rarer still nature intervenes.

No driver/operator error, no charge. Simples
Driver crashes after driving 14 hours plus a day for weeks and also doing an hour stag a night. His/her fault?
 

Truxx

LE
Driver crashes after driving 14 hours plus a day for weeks and also doing an hour stag a night. His/her fault?
Depends when it was and even before adoption of drivers hours what driver standing orders were. Oh and depends what actually happened and the extent to which fatigue could have been a contributory factor.
 
No need to queue; just search Stacker1 anywhere on the site.
Not my fault if "serve to lead" is a bag of bollocks is it?
I wasn't the one on here who claimed officers had a chance to avoid a CM by resigning or made up some **** reason why an officer should let someone be hurt.
 

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