Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

[RangdoOfArg]

Again, nope. This was early/mid 1990s; he was sentenced to six months, and the original plan was that he would serve his full sentence at MCTC.

However, several months into his sentence, the imminent arrival of an even more deserving officer (STAFFORDS Lt, recruit abuser) triggered his sudden release back into our care, while a place at a civilian prison was arranged.

We hoped that they'd just say "look, he's only got a few weeks left, just release him early", but the wheels of justice insisted, and he spent the last few weeks in HMP Barlinnie. Fortunately, one of our CSgts was a prison officer there, and looked out for him; but until the decision was made/transfer arranged, he was housed in Craigiehall Officers' Mess under "close arrest"; with a Captain or more acting as his escorting officer. It screwed up the Adjutant's day, along with all the other PSAOs, because us STABs could only do weekends...

I've just looked up the London Gazette; and found where: "The following Officer is to forfeit the Long Service and Good Conduct Medal (Military)"; and a year earlier, the Memorandum where he is "dismissed from Her Majesty's Service" (try this as a search term within the Gazette).

So he was sentenced to a term of imprisonment, then.

 

[bobthebuilder]

I think the chap from the Staffords you mention didn't exactly set his dog on the recruits - he was reported as getting it to 'perform simulated sex acts with a pillow'. It was all - along with getting them to kiss one another and giving them cuddles - part of an attempt to build morale amongst his platoon, cunningly drawing upon the fact that one of the recruits, desperate to leave, had claimed to be gay. Whereupon the officer in question decided that this was the ideal thing to use as a means of building esprit de corps amongst the chaps. At least, that's what his QC told the CM. He got 15 months (reduced on appeal) and was dismissed in disgrace.

I was under the impression (via the recounting of the tale by someone in what was 3 MERCIAN by that point) that the chap went to MCTC while waiting for accommodation to be provided for him at a civilian establishment, but I quite accept that either I've misremembered this from more than 15 years ago, or my informant got it wrong.

Early 90s an RAMC Colonel was charged with some serious sexual offences. The kind for which a civilian would be remanded in custody awaiting trial.

Back then, the military equivalent of custody was to hold a soldier in custody at Colchester awaiting trial. Said Colonel couldn’t go to MCTC so he was held in close arrest at Catterick Garrison Officers Mess for something like six months.

In theory, he should have been guarded by someone of equal rank, supervised by some one senior. In practice, there was a roster of Captains from across the garrison. The nonce got several years in prison.

 

[RangdoOfArg]

Early 90s an RAMC Colonel was charged with some serious sexual offences. The kind for which a civilian would be remanded in custody awaiting trial.

Back then, the military equivalent of custody was to hold a soldier in custody at Colchester awaiting trial. Said Colonel couldn’t go to MCTC so he was held in close arrest at Catterick Garrison Officers Mess for something like six months.

In theory, he should have been guarded by someone of equal rank, supervised by some one senior. In practice, there was a roster of Captains from across the garrison. The nonce got several years in prison.

Close/open arrest went many years ago.
The Armed Forces Act 2006 treats all suspects/offenders the same, from private to 4*

 

[Gravelbelly]

I think the chap from the Staffords you mention didn't exactly set his dog on the recruits - he was reported as getting it to 'perform simulated sex acts with a pillow'.

I've just found the details of the charges, because they were described in another court case; and while the dog's involvement was a minor part, I can see why MCTC wanted their chance to, errr, ensure that the offender received appropriate and (no doubt) absolutely correct treatment...

 

[Gravelbelly]

So he was sentenced to a term of imprisonment, then.

Yes, and IIRC he served most of it at MCTC.

 

[RangdoOfArg]

Yes, and IIRC he served most of it at MCTC.

Before transfer to HMP. And thus a term of imprisonment.

 

[9.414]

Jan - Dec 2019: published July 2020!!!

Delayed a half year by lockdown? (My Arrse!)

Put yourself on report. You should know the drill by now.

If the civil servant says that is how fast they can do it, then that is it.

The convoy sails at the speed of the slowest ship, as our matelot friends keep reminding us.

 

[RangdoOfArg]

Put yourself on report. You should know the drill by now.

If the civil servant says that is how fast they can do it, then that is it.

The convoy sails at the speed of the slowest ship, as our matelot friends keep reminding us.

Please see my reply above. SJS outperforms CJS.
I know this because Mrs R was the victim of an assault. The recording of the court verdict was very slow. Very, very slow.

 

[9.414]

If they are awaiting transfer to civvie nick, Im pretty sure they start their sentence while they are in MCTC.

Correct. All ranks sentenced to imprisonment move to MCTC and they are transferred from there to HMP Chelmsford usually after about four days. That allows arrangements to be made and for the service discharge to take place.

The sentence commences when the court announces the sentence so days in MCTC all count in this regard.

They are assessed there and usually moved on about a month later eg to Bronzefield for low risk offenders.

If they wish to serve in another jurisdiction ie Scotland or NI, they can put in a request which might take 6 months to process. There are certain restrictions on processing it - no appeal outstanding etc.

All in the public domain. Has been done like this for years - since AFA2006 anyway. There were some slightly different procedures under AA55 etc as the CM had to be confirmed and that could take some time and hence why some officers were held under mess arrest post trial until the confirmation by the Convening Officer and thus the sentence made legal.

I dodged a few weeks of mess arrest escort for a field officer when he had to be escorted by another field officer. It caused a lot of excess 24hr duties for my colleagues until Capts were allowed to join the roster. When I politely enquired of the Major organising the rota he told me that the rest of them thought I had done my bit as the offender had requested me as assisting officer for the trial and I was his escort for those two weeks!

 

[Gravelbelly]

Before transfer to HMP. And thus a term of imprisonment.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with this; you insisted that he "couldn't spend his sentence at MCTC". As I understood it, he was sentenced to be detained at MCTC for a period of time; and when they had to free up their one and only officer bedspace to a more deserving client, he served the balance of that military detention at HMP Barlinnie. I didn't take it from the conversations at the time that he had originally been sentenced to a term of imprisonment at HM's Pleasure.

Don't think of it as him serving civilian time at a Glasshouse; think of it (if my understanding is correct) of MCTC "outsourcing" the balance of his military detention to the civilian facility closest to his home address.

My apologies for confusing you with those who suggested "MCTC can't hold/can't punish Officers" - and I'm more than willing to admit that my understanding of what was going on might be... imperfect (it was 1993/4, after all)

 

[Retd_crab]

I recall one candidate in particular from DS'ing. A young lady of the Royal Engineers who started the TEWT ground brief (we were on the edge of a valley with not much view beyond it) with a polished convincing and competent sounding description of the ground. However I did ask her if she had used her compass to orientate the map as she had that map the wrong way round and everything was 3200 mils out. Thus her attack was in precisely the wrong direction.

I remember a Bde battlefield tour in Spain/Portugal. A certain military historian was sprouting off about Wellington advancing from the north, a quick check of my compass and yes he was 180 degrees out.

 

[Kinch]

Correct. All ranks sentenced to imprisonment move to MCTC and they are transferred from there to HMP Chelmsford usually after about four days. That allows arrangements to be made and for the service discharge to take place.

The sentence commences when the court announces the sentence so days in MCTC all count in this regard.

They are assessed there and usually moved on about a month later eg to Bronzefield for low risk offenders.

If they wish to serve in another jurisdiction ie Scotland or NI, they can put in a request which might take 6 months to process. There are certain restrictions on processing it - no appeal outstanding etc.

All in the public domain. Has been done like this for years - since AFA2006 anyway. There were some slightly different procedures under AA55 etc as the CM had to be confirmed and that could take some time and hence why some officers were held under mess arrest post trial until the confirmation by the Convening Officer and thus the sentence made legal.

I dodged a few weeks of mess arrest escort for a field officer when he had to be escorted by another field officer. It caused a lot of excess 24hr duties for my colleagues until Capts were allowed to join the roster. When I politely enquired of the Major organising the rota he told me that the rest of them thought I had done my bit as the offender had requested me as assisting officer for the trial and I was his escort for those two weeks!

Did you win?

 

[Whiskybreath]

All very depressing, really. Reading that list of CM cases above there's a bit of a pattern among the offenders, some of whom would probably be lauded by their pals in their parachute regiment, but many who seem to be a bit too overloaded with the biological products of their balls. The older types go for the money (although the hormones are still there). There but for the grace...

I was zapped with a Regimental Entry at Corporal, for climbing over the back fence at Ripon Bks, Bielefeld, and gently - and with care - making contact with the Cpl of the Guard's mug (10 Regt RCT; what did they expect?) when apprehended, but still managed to advance a bit in rank over the next few years; if I'd been a Sgt I suspect that my career would have come to a halt there, and if any further up the scale would certainly been up before the Beak. My OC was understanding, however, and the punitive award was mostly for getting his team lost on the Company orienteering competition in the week before.

My only other relevant knowledge of the process comes from the experience of a Grenadier WO2, 'Sandy', who was at the time a very well respected, and highly capable, controller of operations out of Bessbrook, who rose to Major and was sent out to take charge of an ACF region, where he fell to using the funds entrusted to him for repaying his gambling debts. Jailed, and his former comrades spoke no more of him; a terrible shame, because he was a genuinely, innately good and decent man. He died relatively young.

Most of these instances are tragedies. The people who try to cheat the system for the sake of their childrens' education are the most tragic of all, unless they've failed to manage their lives sufficiently to do so legitimately.

 

[MoleBath]

Early 90s an RAMC Colonel was charged with some serious sexual offences. The kind for which a civilian would be remanded in custody awaiting trial.

Back then, the military equivalent of custody was to hold a soldier in custody at Colchester awaiting trial. Said Colonel couldn’t go to MCTC so he was held in close arrest at Catterick Garrison Officers Mess for something like six months.

In theory, he should have been guarded by someone of equal rank, supervised by some one senior. In practice, there was a roster of Captains from across the garrison. The nonce got several years in prison.

Always bad to finish your career for small things........

Small boys
Small arms
Small change.

 

[bobthebuilder]

Always bad to finish your career for small things........

Small boys
Small arms
Small change.

IIRC it was small girls.

 

[History_Man]

I did my PQS 1 exam near Detmold in 1983 with 20 Armd Bde. All the candidates who failed were Regulars.

I DS’d a few JOTES 1 exams for 49 Bde near Colchester in the mid 90s. All the candidates who failed were TA.

Re. JOTES1 at 49 Bde, I'm pretty certain that I know one of them - he failed three times...*

*It wasn't me, btw, I passed first time.

 

[wetsmonkey]

Officers don’t get criminal records?

Really?

Not when they used to get extras or some other punishment that was informal.

 

[9.414]

Did you win?

If you realise that he was in mess arrest post trial awaiting confirmation of sentence you will draw the obvious conclusion

 

[Portree Kid]

The other idiocy Court Martial Boards having to be made up of people two ranks above the accused, why for goodness sake, The Nick Welch trial may have to put civilians on the Board as we don't have enough full Generals, utter nonsense.

No issue with Civilians making up the board for every CM on a permanent basis. ( Free up others from their demanding schedule )

Anyone who is being tried at a CM should be referred to as '' The accused or the Defendant '' for the duration of the CM - Rank can go out the window.

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

All very depressing, really. Reading that list of CM cases above there's a bit of a pattern among the offenders, some of whom would probably be lauded by their pals in their parachute regiment, but many who seem to be a bit too overloaded with the biological products of their balls. The older types go for the money (although the hormones are still there). There but for the grace...

I was zapped with a Regimental Entry at Corporal, for climbing over the back fence at Ripon Bks, Bielefeld, and gently - and with care - making contact with the Cpl of the Guard's mug (10 Regt RCT; what did they expect?) when apprehended, but still managed to advance a bit in rank over the next few years; if I'd been a Sgt I suspect that my career would have come to a halt there, and if any further up the scale would certainly been up before the Beak. My OC was understanding, however, and the punitive award was mostly for getting his team lost on the Company orienteering competition in the week before.

My only other relevant knowledge of the process comes from the experience of a Grenadier WO2, 'Sandy', who was at the time a very well respected, and highly capable, controller of operations out of Bessbrook, who rose to Major and was sent out to take charge of an ACF region, where he fell to using the funds entrusted to him for repaying his gambling debts. Jailed, and his former comrades spoke no more of him; a terrible shame, because he was a genuinely, innately good and decent man. He died relatively young.

Most of these instances are tragedies. The people who try to cheat the system for the sake of their childrens' education are the most tragic of all, unless they've failed to manage their lives sufficiently to do so legitimately.

Trying to work out why a 10 Regt Cpl would be guarding Ripon Bks when he should have been guarding Catterick Bks down the road a bit.

Had drink been taken in your escapade?