Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

[longlivethequeen]

The difference being, that the officer didn’t get a criminal record or a disciplinary record that in some circumstances follows into civvy street.

Extras, charity fines and champagne for the mess are not the same.

A 2 tier disciplinary system, where officers cannot go to MCTC doesn’t seem right nowadays.

It should be fare across the board one rule for Bods and one rule for Rupert’s is in modern times archaic. As a full screw I caught a certain Captain behaving extremely inappropriately with our Battalions WRAC Ac Adj many moons ago after a Regimental Dinner whilst I was wobbling around try to stop the prowlers having booze a way from the back of a tent. Naturally I was not a happy chap when I found him. All I can say is that it was all brushed under a carpet I was reminded by the RSM that the Sgts promotion board was due to sit and that I was on it however it was possible that I might not be on it. I told him the I was raised to be honest and to have moral courage and was not prepared to back track and that I had a photo copy of the incident book and the prowlers statements how assisted me in securing said Captain with the use of minimum force ie a pick as Handel. Did it go any where did it hell as like did I pick up nope no chance. Totally trashed my career the black mark against my name followed me around for way to many years, ironic really two years to hit full screw in an Infantry unit was in the good old days quite good. Ironically the ****** cam back as the CO moral courage with Officers not a hope in hells chance.
s

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

I am.

I'd not make it otherwise.

Well, as usual you can have your own opinion, as it can only be informed by your experience.

I reserve the right not to agree with it as it doesn’t match my experience.

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

It should be fare across the board one rule for Bods and one rule for Rupert’s is in modern times archaic. As a full screw I caught a certain Captain behaving extremely inappropriately with our Battalions WRAC Ac Adj many moons ago after a Regimental Dinner whilst I was wobbling around try to stop the prowlers having booze a way from the back of a tent. Naturally I was not a happy chap when I found him. All I can say is that it was all brushed under a carpet I was reminded by the RSM that the Sgts promotion board was due to sit and that I was on it however it was possible that I might not be on it. I told him the I was raised to be honest and to have moral courage and was not prepared to back track and that I had a photo copy of the incident book and the prowlers statements how assisted me in securing said Captain with the use of minimum force ie a pick as Handel. Did it go any where did it hell as like did I pick up nope no chance. Totally trashed my career the black mark against my name followed me around for way to many years, ironic really two years to hit full screw in an Infantry unit was in the good old days quite good. Ironically the ****** cam back as the CO moral courage with Officers not a hope in hells chance.
s

Send settings over.

 

[Danny_Dravot]

Notwithstanding all of the above, there is another angle which is the manner in which (particularly) young officers tend to **** up in by virtue of their duties and the manner in which they undertake them.

Take some "everyday" AGAI/charges below:

**caveat - I acknowledge there are always exceptions and I'm not making excuses for unprofessional behaviour**

• a YO is more likely to be running a range, than a firer, so is less likely to have an ND;
• a YO is less likely to be driving a mil vehicle than a junior rank, so less chance of RTA, motoring offence etc;
• YO's typically don't parade at 0800 daily with their troops, but have more casual morning arrangements;
• YOs tend not to get in punch-ups as often as the lads; likewise insubordination in the officer corps tends to be relatively rare;
• Whilst I'm not condoning damages to the mess, often it is to private mess property and is rectified pretty quickly with chequebook - not as straight forward as barrack damages to fix.

Conversely, where there has been parity of offence I've seen parity, or more severe, punishment. I've seen a fair few YOs fall foul of drink-driving, no quarter spared. Likewise, seen a couple get caught out on CDT, and recall a young Capt going to MCTC for fighting.

 

[RangdoOfArg]

Notwithstanding all of the above, there is another angle which is the manner in which (particularly) young officers tend to **** up in by virtue of their duties and the manner in which they undertake them.

Take some "everyday" AGAI/charges below:

**caveat - I acknowledge there are always exceptions and I'm not making excuses for unprofessional behaviour**

• a YO is more likely to be running a range, than a firer, so is less likely to have an ND;
• a YO is less likely to be driving a mil vehicle than a junior rank, so less chance of RTA, motoring offence etc;
• YO's typically don't parade at 0800 daily with their troops, but have more casual morning arrangements;
• YOs tend not to get in punch-ups as often than the lads; likewise insubordination tends to be relatively rare;
• Whilst I'm not condoning damages to the mess, often it is to private mess property and is rectified pretty quickly with chequebook - not as straight forward as barrack damages to fix.

Conversely, where there has been parity of offence I've seen parity, or more severe, punishment. I've seen a fair few YOs fall foul of drink-driving, no quarter spared. Likewise, seen a couple get caught out on CDT, and recall a young Capt going to MCTC for fighting.

A captain cannot go to MCTC as they cannot be awarded a period of military detention

 

[Danny_Dravot]

A captain cannot go to MCTC as they cannot be awarded a period of military detention

You're wrong. I put him on the transport. He got discharged via a stint at Colly - although he may well have gone on to Civvy nick to finish sentence. Memory fading. It was at least 16 yrs ago.

 

[Gravelbelly]

A captain cannot go to MCTC as they cannot be awarded a period of military detention

Nope. Our "just borrowing the cash to tide me over, honest" PSAO (mentioned above) was a Captain, and he spent several months of his sentence there.

 

[stacker1]

It should be fare across the board one rule for Bods and one rule for Rupert’s is in modern times archaic. As a full screw I caught a certain Captain behaving extremely inappropriately with our Battalions WRAC Ac Adj many moons ago after a Regimental Dinner whilst I was wobbling around try to stop the prowlers having booze a way from the back of a tent. Naturally I was not a happy chap when I found him. All I can say is that it was all brushed under a carpet I was reminded by the RSM that the Sgts promotion board was due to sit and that I was on it however it was possible that I might not be on it. I told him the I was raised to be honest and to have moral courage and was not prepared to back track and that I had a photo copy of the incident book and the prowlers statements how assisted me in securing said Captain with the use of minimum force ie a pick as Handel. Did it go any where did it hell as like did I pick up nope no chance. Totally trashed my career the black mark against my name followed me around for way to many years, ironic really two years to hit full screw in an Infantry unit was in the good old days quite good. Ironically the ****** cam back as the CO moral courage with Officers not a hope in hells chance.
s

Nobody likes a grass.

 

[Stonker]

Well, as usual you can have your own opinion, as it can only be informed by your experience.

I reserve the right not to agree with it as it doesn’t match my experience.

That's what a sheltered life in the upper echelons will do to a chap

 

[RangdoOfArg]

You're wrong. I put him on the transport. He got discharged via a stint at Colly - although he may well have gone on to Civvy nick to finish sentence. It was at least 16 yrs ago.

Oh, I see. They were sentenced to a term of imprisonment. Transition to HMP Chelmsford is always done through the portal that is MCTC.

 

[RangdoOfArg]

Nope. Our "just borrowing the cash to tide me over, honest" PSAO (mentioned above) was a Captain, and he spent several months of his sentence there.

Please see below (or is it above). None of the sentence is served at MCTC (it can’t) but they can be held there pending transfer to HMP. Or, in extremis, pending trial.

 

[Danny_Dravot]

Nobody likes a grass.

nor those who can't punctuate or use paragraphs...I'm not sure I understood his dit. It all sounded a bit, "cheers Tam" ....

 

[stacker1]

Please see below (or is it above). None of the sentence is served at MCTC (it can’t) but they can be held there pending transfer to HMP. Or, in extremis, pending trial.

If they are awaiting transfer to civvie nick, Im pretty sure they start their sentence while they are in MCTC.

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

JOTES1 was the promotion exam. I did mine with HQ 43 Bde (now HQ SW) at RSA Larkhill. All the candidates who failed were Regulars.

I did my PQS 1 exam near Detmold in 1983 with 20 Armd Bde. All the candidates who failed were Regulars.

I DS’d a few JOTES 1 exams for 49 Bde near Colchester in the mid 90s. All the candidates who failed were TA.

 

[Just_plain_you]

I DS’d a few JOTES 1 exams for 49 Bde near Colchester in the mid 90s. All the candidates who failed were TA.

Was that because the Bde Comd told you to or because they were trained by the regular army?

 

[RangdoOfArg]

If they are awaiting transfer to civvie nick, Im pretty sure they start their sentence while they are in MCTC.

Yes, just like time on remand counts towards a sentence.
In that respect, it doesn’t matter. A CM JA is a circuit judge, and they do work in the Crown Court. And the usual sentencing guidelines apply.

 

[Archimedes]

It might not mention it, but I know of two such cases...

Officers at MCTC

I think the chap from the Staffords you mention didn't exactly set his dog on the recruits - he was reported as getting it to 'perform simulated sex acts with a pillow'. It was all - along with getting them to kiss one another and giving them cuddles - part of an attempt to build morale amongst his platoon, cunningly drawing upon the fact that one of the recruits, desperate to leave, had claimed to be gay. Whereupon the officer in question decided that this was the ideal thing to use as a means of building esprit de corps amongst the chaps. At least, that's what his QC told the CM. He got 15 months (reduced on appeal) and was dismissed in disgrace.

I was under the impression (via the recounting of the tale by someone in what was 3 MERCIAN by that point) that the chap went to MCTC while waiting for accommodation to be provided for him at a civilian establishment, but I quite accept that either I've misremembered this from more than 15 years ago, or my informant got it wrong.

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

Was that because the Bde Comd told you to or because they were trained by the regular army?

No, it was because they weren’t up to the standard.

Nothing to do with my Brigadier, who as you know, simply didn’t want to place his trust in the reserve Lt Cols in his Bde at the time having seen their lack of experience, quality and their worrying treatment of the TA as an old boys’ club and a route to DLL.

I don’t expect you to agree, you may have been one of them.

 

[stacker1]

I think the chap from the Staffords you mention didn't exactly set his dog on the recruits - he was reported as getting it to 'perform simulated sex acts with a pillow'. It was all - along with getting them to kiss one another and giving them cuddles - part of an attempt to build morale amongst his platoon, cunningly drawing upon the fact that one of the recruits, desperate to leave, had claimed to be gay. Whereupon the officer in question decided that this was the ideal thing to use as a means of building esprit de corps amongst the chaps. At least, that's what his QC told the CM. He got 15 months (reduced on appeal) and was dismissed in disgrace.

If he had been a booty he would have got away with it.

 

[Gravelbelly]

Please see below (or is it above). None of the sentence is served at MCTC (it can’t) but they can be held there pending transfer to HMP. Or, in extremis, pending trial.

Again, nope. This was early/mid 1990s; he was sentenced to six months, and the original plan was that he would serve his full sentence at MCTC.

However, several months into his sentence, the imminent arrival of an even more deserving officer (STAFFORDS Lt, recruit abuser) triggered his sudden release back into our care, while a place at a civilian prison was arranged.

We hoped that they'd just say "look, he's only got a few weeks left, just release him early", but the wheels of justice insisted, and he spent the last few weeks in HMP Barlinnie. Fortunately, one of our CSgts was a prison officer there, and looked out for him; but until the decision was made/transfer arranged, he was housed in Craigiehall Officers' Mess under "close arrest"; with a Captain or more acting as his escorting officer. It screwed up the Adjutant's day, along with all the other PSAOs, because us STABs could only do weekends...

I've just looked up the London Gazette; and found where: "The following Officer is to forfeit the Long Service and Good Conduct Medal (Military)"; and a year earlier, the Memorandum where he is "dismissed from Her Majesty's Service" (try this as a search term within the Gazette).