Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

[Bubbles_Barker]

The difference being, that the officer didn’t get a criminal record or a disciplinary record that in some circumstances follows into civvy street.

Extras, charity fines and champagne for the mess are not the same.

A 2 tier disciplinary system, where officers cannot go to MCTC doesn’t seem right nowadays.

Officers don’t get criminal records?

Really?

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

You're getting there!

Hey, wilful misquoting - and you a mod and all.

No amount of winking excuses that...

 

[RangdoOfArg]

I'm fairly certain they had an officer in MCTC on remand and he was one of the few suicides. I cant remember the exact details because I was told a long time ago by the staff there, he was done for some form of noncing and was some sort of doctor/nurse, he was given pills but he wasnt swallowing them, he stashed them, took them all at once and suffocated/hung himself at the same time.

Where do officers go when they are accused of serious offence but are awaiting trial?

Officers awaiting trial? Bit of a tricky area as remand in post-charge custody does not fit the JSP.
They are often given stringent movement restrictions, reviewed by the JA periodically. Works in most cases.
ETA: see above. The mechanism is there to detain them.

 

[Auld-Yin]

Hey, wilful misquoting - and you a mod and all.

No amount of winking excuses that...

You just take that back!

Book Reviews Editor if you don't mind.

 

[stacker1]

That is a bit simplistic. If the order is illegal it is not a lawful command, but the only way to test it is to fail to obey it and see if they prosecute you.

You do not have to obey an order to commit any crime. For example "Execute those POW's" would be illegal and a War Crime. You would not have to obey it.

If the order is to serve pink wafers with coffee or eat sandwiches using knives and forks then it becomes a little more nuanced

It clearly says if you think the order is contrary to regulations/other orders, to tell the person giving the order and if they insist, you are to obey. A very strange wording.
While you would be on safe ground by refusing to kill POWs, it becomes a bit of grey area if you do something less serious, that has consequences and you say, I knew it was wrong but regulations tell me to obey the order.


Ive asked this question before what an order is, I cant remember the exact wording but its something along the lines of "a legal command that must be of use to the military". So you cant (or rather shouldnt) order someone to make you a cup of tea, unless you can prove it is of benefit to the military.

 

[stacker1]

It all depends. Guilty findings in SH or CM for recordable offences will be recorded on PNC, as well as the officers’s records. Those not deemed recordable on national systems will still be on the personnel file.

My point was that private bloggs smashing up the block got charged and received ROPs. Lt Balloonhead smashing up the mess with his hi jinks, got extras and still would promote. The officers offences were not recorded, because (previously) extras werent.

 

[A signaller]

So who was vehicle commander?

Example:- Ex crusader 80, driving the OC to Hildesheim, Tofrek barracks, we had a radio Dett their. A queue at the gate check point, in the back of the rover, some serious radio equipment, urgently needed by the lads, my instruction from the boss" Drive to the front sparks" I jump the queue, and a loud shouty voice ( An MP SSGT) sticks his face in the passengers window, and i get a bollocking, the boss explains the situation, shouty voice then diplomatically bollocks the boss, and then me, we are allowed in. Ultimately its my name on the AFG 3518, my responsibility,the OC "Owns" both the vehicle and me, so who gets it in the neck, should shouty voice decide to prefer charges.?

 

[Stonker]

The court finding for the last few years are here:

Court martial results from the military court centres

Provided by the Military Court Service.

www.gov.uk

They show rank and unit and sentence.

It won't stop those who think they know different from being confused by a bit of accuracy though

Jan - Dec 2019: published July 2020!!!

Delayed a half year by lockdown? (My Arrse!)

 

[RangdoOfArg]

The difference being, that the officer didn’t get a criminal record or a disciplinary record that in some circumstances follows into civvy street.

Extras, charity fines and champagne for the mess are not the same.

A 2 tier disciplinary system, where officers cannot go to MCTC doesn’t seem right nowadays.

This has been answered before, but to add: officers cannot be sentenced to military detention. This is an option available only to ORs. The JSP is very clear on this.
If the JA, on sentencing, finds incarceration meets the guidelines, HMP it must be.
ORs can be sentenced to either. MCTC can of course be done without dismissal as part of the sentence. Imprisonment automatically means dismissal.
So I wouldn’t say it was two tier. Officers just get streamlined to HMP.

 

[Just_plain_you]

That is absolutely an Army thing.

Really? OK, He didn't prang it...

Captain of Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth stripped of command 'for misusing official car'

The captain of the largest and most powerful ship ever built for the Royal Navy has been stripped of his command for misusing its official car, it has been reported.

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[RangdoOfArg]

My point was that private bloggs smashing up the block got charged and received ROPs. Lt Balloonhead smashing up the mess with his hi jinks, got extras and still would promote. The officers offences were not recorded, because (previously) extras werent.

One got charged, the other didn’t. Is that the issue here?

 

[Stonker]

who gets it in the neck, should shouty voice decide to prefer charges.?

Further evidence that my lifelong contempt for the RMP as pillars of justice, good order and military discipline is well-founded

 

[stacker1]

One got charged, the other didn’t. Is that the issue here?

Sort of

Oyibo said

. (At the time for officers) CRs screwed and career endangered.

All the officers I knew with degrees got promoted regardless at their 2.5 year point (Unless they had seriously fucked up). So them getting extras was just a pain in the arse, but for the same offence a soldier could get a record.

 

[RangdoOfArg]

Example:- Ex crusader 80, driving the OC to Hildesheim, Tofrek barracks, we had a radio Dett their. A queue at the gate check point, in the back of the rover, some serious radio equipment, urgently needed by the lads, my instruction from the boss" Drive to the front sparks" I jump the queue, and a loud shouty voice ( An MP SSGT) sticks his face in the passengers window, and i get a bollocking, the boss explains the situation, shouty voice then diplomatically bollocks the boss, and then me, we are allowed in. Ultimately its my name on the AFG 3518, my responsibility,the OC "Owns" both the vehicle and me, so who gets it in the neck, should shouty voice decide to prefer charges.?

I’d hope you (if charged) would elect for CM and call your OC as a witness.
Reckon you would both have a grand day out.

 

[History_Man]

I think that may indeed be at least part of the issue. Adjts (and COs) can't or at least shouldn't do that these days, hence more use of the formal (proper?) systems.

Five extras max now.

 

[RangdoOfArg]

Sort of

Oyibo said

. (At the time for officers) CRs screwed and career endangered.

All the officers I knew with degrees got promoted regardless at their 2.5 year point (Unless they had seriously fucked up). So them getting extras was just a pain in the arse, but for the same offence a soldier could get a record.

OK. SH and AGAI are different, as you know. My experience of receiving army discipline is at the lower end, but we all know for some people discipline hearings are water off a duck’s back.
Lots of SNCOs and WOs went a long way having been naughty boys in their early days.

 

[diverman]

Jan - Dec 2019: published July 2020!!!

Delayed a half year by lockdown? (My Arrse!)

Maybe it's to allow the individual to be released from MCTC before it's published and where retained back on their unit.

 

[History_Man]

Not sure when you joined, but I think you are talking bollox. There was a time when mainstream (i.e. not doctors, dentists etc) graduate officers would be a lieutenant straight after leaving RMAS, but in that era there was a promotion exam to captain, and a minimum age/service bar as well.

JOTES1 was the promotion exam. I did mine with HQ 43 Bde (now HQ SW) at RSA Larkhill. All the candidates who failed were Regulars.

 

[A signaller]

OK. SH and AGAI are different, as you know. My experience of receiving army discipline is at the lower end, but we all know for some people discipline hearings are water off a duck’s back.
Lots of SNCOs and WOs went a long way having been naughty boys in their early days...........

...and some didn't. I had a new face foisted on me in my workshop, out of the blue, no warning, his rank was signalman, but i found out a few days later, after he had gone, that he was a WO2, busted and soldier on,... one of many, who were waiting conformation of postings, who they lumped on me while deciding what to do with them. 1978-81.

 

[RangdoOfArg]

Maybe it's to allow the individual to be released from MCTC before it's published and where retained back on their unit.

I don’t think that’s too shabby. Your local Crown Court cases can take much longer than that to be a public record.