Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

[diverman]

So who was vehicle commander?

I suspect the driver as the same in the RAF the aircraft captain outranks anybody on his/her aircraft when in operation.

This was from Prune some years ago now and was talking about the repatriation/compassionate return system and the one sided conversation between an aircraft captain and a so-called senior officer.

CAT A Compassionate - PPRuNe Forums

Military Aviation - CAT A Compassionate - Already acted on. I posted no.17 just before I left for work, and I had an email waiting for me from someone

www.pprune.org

"I can only remember 1 occasion where someone got annoyed because of a comp A.

We had just go all 4 running when we were informed a Puma was inbound with a comp A on board. The Puma was 60 minutes out so we shut down and waited. After explaining to the pax what was going on, everyone (except an army colonel) settled down for the duration. The col. in question started threatening all sorts to try to make us depart on schedule, even threatening to call 2 and 3 stars in London. The captain was an old hand, and his reply is one I'll never forget.

"You can call God for all I care, because we aren't going anywhere until that guy is on-board. If you want to be aboard when we do leave, then I suggest you sit down and shut the **** up, Sir."

The col. never did make that phone call!"

 

[alfred_the_great]

Does not the same rules apply for the RAF, and NAVY shore based personal?

I have never seen a matelot who has had an incident in a service vehicle go through the process as described.

Investigated by police (and exonerated) - yes.

 

[par avion]

The only that I know of held at MCTC since its previous life as a PoW camp was the Agrentine naval officer Astiz and torturer at the Argentine Naval Mechanics School as a PoW during the Falklands war.

Alfredo Astiz - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Was he marched around, given cell inspections and kit lay outs, weopon training and run around the assault course?

 

[stacker1]

Officers also got extras

I know, it was in the post I quoted, thats why I said Juniors also got them

 

[stacker1]

It's because even a 2Lt would have to be remanded quite far up the chain before he could be summarily dealt with and that was (and is) a waste of senior officers' time.

Therefore officers should not drive unless operational circumstances or safety dictates.

That's the way it used to be anyhow, and a bloody good job too.

A perfect example of a stupid rule that could be fixed (i.e. not **** over someone for a minor incident) but the Army kept enforcing it.

 

[stacker1]

The only that I know of held at MCTC since its previous life as a PoW camp was the Agrentine naval officer Astiz and torturer at the Argentine Naval Mechanics School as a PoW during the Falklands war.

Alfredo Astiz - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'm fairly certain they had an officer in MCTC on remand and he was one of the few suicides. I cant remember the exact details because I was told a long time ago by the staff there, he was done for some form of noncing and was some sort of doctor/nurse, he was given pills but he wasnt swallowing them, he stashed them, took them all at once and suffocated/hung himself at the same time.

Where do officers go when they are accused of serious offence but are awaiting trial?

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

If it reaches a Charge Sheet in the first place.

How many officers lost rank, money, seniority, promotion, reputation just because the CSM was in a bad mood and the OC just went along with the CSM?

How many becauses they put up a black with the CO? Suddenly that posting has disappeared, your MS moment with the GOC cancelled....

 

[stacker1]

Definitely went on the record and required Bde Cmdrs sign-off for CRs in the late '90s. Reprimands, Severe Reprimands etc.

How do extras end up on your discipline record?
Also if people were going to get their captain at their 2.5 year point regardless of what they did, did they really care what their CR said?

 

[diverman]

I'm fairly certain they had an officer in MCTC on remand and he was one of the few suicides. I cant remember the exact details because I was told a long time ago by the staff there, he was done for some form of noncing and was some sort of doctor/nurse, he was given pills but he wasnt swallowing them, he stashed them, took them all at once and suffocated/hung himself at the same time.

Where do officers go when they are accused of serious offence but are awaiting trial?

I have just read the history of MCTC and it makes no mention of officers being there, I suspect they are either if the case is serious enough they are remanded to HMP or under close arrest in their room in the O Mess. it does mention that there have been couple of suicides since it opened but no indication of rank.

 

[wetsmonkey]

The only that I know of held at MCTC since its previous life as a PoW camp was the Agrentine naval officer Astiz and torturer at the Argentine Naval Mechanics School as a PoW during the Falklands war.

Alfredo Astiz - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He was held in The Duty Room and Keep at The RMPTS at Chichester.

 

[stacker1]

I have just read the history of MCTC and it makes no mention of officers being there, I suspect they are either if the case is serious enough they are remanded to HMP or under close arrest in their room in the O Mess. it does mention that there have been couple of suicides since it opened but no indication of rank.

We had a Sally Army Major (I know not a real officer but he had their status) banged up along side his wife in the Gutersloh cells.
I think the days on close arrest in their rooms (another example of double standards) is fairly much over.

Does anyone know where officers go when awaiting trial for serious offences?

 

[Auld-Yin]

How many becauses they put up a black with the CO? Suddenly that posting has disappeared, your MS moment with the GOC cancelled....

All you are doing is proving my original point that officers are now being treated more like ORs.

And that can't be a bad thing.

 

[stacker1]

Is the two rank separation thing a binding legal provision, or is it just a longstanding convention ?

Anybody ?

The 2-Rank Rule (6) Only officers up to the rank of wg cdr and equivalents in the other 2 Services (cdr and lt col) may be dealt with summarily by COs. In order to deal summarily with an officer the CO must be 2 ranks higher. Where the CO is not 2 ranks higher, an officer will be specifically appointed to be CO for the purpose of hearing the charge. The officer next higher in the CO’s chain of command would usually be specifically appointed as CO in these circumstances.

From

https://witneyaircadets.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/queens-regulations-for-the-royal-air-force-2016.pdf

Page 201

 

[9.414]

The gov UK webpages publish weekly(?) updated CM schedules (they're transient, so only the current one can be read), but also an annual list of who got what. Can't remember if the latter includes sentence, or verdict only.

The court finding for the last few years are here:

Court martial results from the military court centres

Provided by the Military Court Service.

www.gov.uk

They show rank and unit and sentence.

It won't stop those who think they know different from being confused by a bit of accuracy though

 

[stacker1]

Im finding all sorts of interesting things while searching for where officers on remand hang out.

If an officer should receive from his superior an order which he deems to be at variance with his obedience to any paragraph of these regulations, or with any particular order that may have been issued by the Defence Council or by another superior officer, he is to represent orally (or in writing if the order does not require immediate obedience) such contrariety to the officer from whom he receives it: and if after such representation that officer shall still direct him to obey the order, he is to do so.

That reads to me that if you think an order is illegal you are still to obey it.

 

[9.414]

We had a Sally Army Major (I know not a real officer but he had their status) banged up along side his wife in the Gutersloh cells.
I think the days on close arrest in their rooms (another example of double standards) is fairly much over.

Does anyone know where officers go when awaiting trial for serious offences?

They were then transferred to MCTC on remand before a lengthy trial IIRC. As they were subject to service law they get treated the same.

I recall a service wife in the guardroom on a stabbing when overseas before she got bail.

Officers on remand would go to MCTC AFAIK.

 

[9.414]

Im finding all sorts of interesting things while searching for where officers on bail hang out.

If an officer should receive from his superior an order which he deems to be at variance with his obedience to any paragraph of these regulations, or with any particular order that may have been issued by the Defence Council or by another superior officer, he is to represent orally (or in writing if the order does not require immediate obedience) such contrariety to the officer from whom he receives it: and if after such representation that officer shall still direct him to obey the order, he is to do so.

That reads to me that if you think an order is illegal you are still to obey it.

That is a bit simplistic. If the order is illegal it is not a lawful command, but the only way to test it is to fail to obey it and see if they prosecute you.

You do not have to obey an order to commit any crime. For example "Execute those POW's" would be illegal and a War Crime. You would not have to obey it.

If the order is to serve pink wafers with coffee or eat sandwiches using knives and forks then it becomes a little more nuanced

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

All you are doing is proving my original point that officers are now being treated more like ORs.

And that can't be a bad thing.

Well not quite - neither you (nor I) have actually offered any proof of either view. It’s all unsubstantiated perception at the moment...

 

[Auld-Yin]

Well not quite - neither you (nor I) have actually offered any proof of either view. It’s all unsubstantiated perception at the moment...

You're getting there!

 

[RangdoOfArg]

But again, nothing on their record?

When I joined having a degree as an officer got you your captain rank regardless of how much of a belter you were.

It all depends. Guilty findings in SH or CM for recordable offences will be recorded on PNC, as well as the officers’s records. Those not deemed recordable on national systems will still be on the personnel file.