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Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

I think I read somewhere that you can't be reduced to a lower rank than the one you joined as. So for graduate officers who are 2Lts on day one, I imagine they can't be reduced to Pte. Those who are non-grads are OCdts, so their sub rank is Pte; that may be different.

On the other hand a) it may be complete barrack-room lawyer shit that I heard years ago, and/or b) maybe those who commission on day 1 are enlisted as Ptes on Day 1 and commissioned immediately thereafter.

The whole thing needs to be looked at from the ground up. There are so many rules, regulations and procedures that stem from times gone by. For example, officers can't/shouldn't drive military vehicles. Why the hell not? Why do DE officers in technical corps only "lead"? Bit of a waste having a civil engineering degree if you're an RE captain and you're "just" the Sqn 2IC or Ops Offr. It seems to work for the RN and RAF, having officers "do". These are just a few examples, there are many others where the Army does stuff in a certain way because that's how Haig did it, or similar.
My bold.

I drove a succession of officers, the last being the Sqn OC, i asked the same question, and was told that should there be an accident, or any confrontation with another vehicle, its the driver who is ultimately responsible, and should it warrant the driver being arrested, OR's are easily replaceable, officers not so. 1972-1981.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
The difference being, that the officer didn’t get a criminal record or a disciplinary record that in some circumstances follows into civvy street.

Extras, charity fines and champagne for the mess are not the same.

A 2 tier disciplinary system, where officers cannot go to MCTC doesn’t seem right nowadays.
Officers go to a civilian prison in my experience.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
My bold.

I drove a succession of officers, the last being the Sqn OC, i asked the same question, and was told that should there be an accident, or any confrontation with another vehicle, its the driver who is ultimately responsible, and should it warrant the driver being arrested, OR's are easily replaceable, officers not so.
It's because even a 2Lt would have to be remanded quite far up the chain before he could be summarily dealt with and that was (and is) a waste of senior officers' time.

Therefore officers should not drive unless operational circumstances or safety dictates.

That's the way it used to be anyhow, and a bloody good job too.
 

Oyibo

LE
But again, nothing on their record?

When I joined having a degree as an officer got you your captain rank regardless of how much of a belter you were.

Definitely went on the record and required Bde Cmdrs sign-off for CRs in the late '90s. Reprimands, Severe Reprimands etc.
 

chimera

LE
Moderator

9.414

War Hero
...

A 2 tier disciplinary system, where officers cannot go to MCTC doesn’t seem right nowadays.
Not quite how I see it. If they get a sentence where they should hear the clang of the cell door then they will always be dismissed as well as they are not going to soldier on as their integrity is in tatters. Hence no need for MCTC.

If they are to lose their liberty it is therefore by imprisonment only and that comes with dismissal.

An officer got a 30 day imprisonment sentence two years ago. All soldiers would be MCTC and soldier on for that, the officer was consequently also dismissed.
 
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It's because even a 2Lt would have to be remanded quite far up the chain before he could be summarily dealt with and that was (and is) a waste of senior officers' time.

Therefore officers should not drive unless operational circumstances or safety dictates.

That's the way it used to be anyhow, and a bloody good job too.

That's another thing - why does an FMT3 result in disciplinary proceedings? In what other walk of life, driving works motors, does having a shunt automatically result in disciplinary proceedings, where the offender can be sent to the employer's very own greybar hotel? Ridiculous waste of time, effort and money.
 
That's another thing - why does an FMT3 result in disciplinary proceedings? In what other walk of life, driving works motors, does having a shunt automatically result in disciplinary proceedings, where the offender can be sent to the employer's very own greybar hotel? Ridiculous waste of time, effort and money.
That is absolutely an Army thing.
 

Exrivofrigido

Old-Salt
That is absolutely an Army thing.
I’ve seen it once, when an absolute belter of an MTO insisted on charging one of my section commanders when, out on the area, he contrived to be overtaken by his own trailer while tip toeing down a slope, and broke a light cluster. Coy Comd threw it out with a laugh and had some choice words for the MTO. He was quite right. It may have been bad tyres, bad training or a mistake from which he learned, but a disciplinary offence it wasn’t. In every other instance, the view taken is that it’s either for police to investigate, or it’s a matter for training and supervision.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
Do you know what happens as an officer when you get a Reprimand or a Severe Reprimand or an 'Expression of Displeasure' (or whatever they are called)?

You forfeit things - rank, money, seniority, promotion, reputation.

It is universally negative but I guess that doesn't fit your narrative though eh?
If it reaches a Charge Sheet in the first place.

How many officers lost rank, money, seniority, promotion, reputation just because the CSM was in a bad mood and the OC just went along with the CSM?
 

Exrivofrigido

Old-Salt
It's because even a 2Lt would have to be remanded quite far up the chain before he could be summarily dealt with and that was (and is) a waste of senior officers' time.

Therefore officers should not drive unless operational circumstances or safety dictates.

That's the way it used to be anyhow, and a bloody good job too.
That was always the explanation. Certainly my Comd Offrs always took the view that it was utter nonsense though - if we couldn’t trust an officer to drive lest he require prosecution, then we shouldn’t trust him with a rifle either. And, more practically, if you sent a Pl Comd and his sergeant off to Wales for a Recce it made sense for them to be able to share the driving. And - in extremis you understand - he might even be able to pop down the road without needing a soldier to go with him.
 
That was always the explanation. Certainly my Comd Offrs always took the view that it was utter nonsense though - if we couldn’t trust an officer to drive lest he require prosecution, then we shouldn’t trust him with a rifle either. And, more practically, if you sent a Pl Comd and his sergeant off to Wales for a Recce it made sense for them to be able to share the driving. And - in extremis you understand - he might even be able to pop down the road without needing a soldier to go with him.
It never seemed to bother Colin Mitchell, allthough the passenger sitting next to him doesn't seem too happy, but I don't think that's just down to the Colonel's driving.


madmitch.jpg


images.jpg
 
Really? I know him quite well. That is a surprise! On the other hand I have a good idea what his offence is and isn't cross-dressing.

How does one go about finding out the outcome?
The gov UK webpages publish weekly(?) updated CM schedules (they're transient, so only the current one can be read), but also an annual list of who got what. Can't remember if the latter includes sentence, or verdict only.
 

QRK2

LE
My bold.

I drove a succession of officers, the last being the Sqn OC, i asked the same question, and was told that should there be an accident, or any confrontation with another vehicle, its the driver who is ultimately responsible, and should it warrant the driver being arrested, OR's are easily replaceable, officers not so. 1972-1981.

Not the what I've come across, the policy with which I was more familiar with was whatever the driver gets the vehicle commander will get double.
 
We had a Lt banged up at a GCM for going on a two years walkabout, sending post cards from exotic locations hardly endeared him to the RMP, let alone the CO of 1 Gordons who regularly got one as he enjoyed his morning coffee in the anti room.
Why didn't he just resign his commission?
 

Royal Engineers have a significant number of Professionally Qualified (i.e. Chartered) Engineer officers. RE officers in the Works Groups/Specialist Teams Royal Engineers are almost all PQEs or Garrison Engineers (the LE Clerk of Works stream commissioned equivalent).
And it was the same late 1970, loads of PQE, loads of CoW, remainder Techies and a couple of drivers.
Happy and very professional times.
Nearly all Regulars then as the Army was much bigger.
 
My bold.

I drove a succession of officers, the last being the Sqn OC, i asked the same question, and was told that should there be an accident, or any confrontation with another vehicle, its the driver who is ultimately responsible, and should it warrant the driver being arrested, OR's are easily replaceable, officers not so. 1972-1981.
So who was vehicle commander?
 

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