Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

Words. Clever little things. One day you may understand them.
I understand you are a sad old man who struggled to let go of the army based on your words.
 
I disagree with you; there is a difference and it’s more than semantics. The problem is when when people don’t understand the difference and treat the target like a quota.
That's because that's what it means, one of my Troopie went to Pirbright, which he was looking forward to, because he thought he could filter out some of the dross we were getting.
Saw him about 6 months later and he was threaders with the senior officers there who heavily hinted that they need black and females (and in fairness useless white blokes) but no one would officially say quota.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
That's because that's what it means, one of my Troopie went to Pirbright, which he was looking forward to, because he thought he could filter out some of the dross we were getting.
Saw him about 6 months later and he was threaders with the senior officers there who heavily hinted that they need black and females (and in fairness useless white blokes) but no one would officially say quota.
I agree. It is quite difficult. The people who cal the shots want service personnel from more diverse backgrounds than has been the case.

The problem then is unless you set some sort of quantifiable aspiration - a target - nothing will happen.

But as soon as you create a target there is a danger that people will start massaging the system in order to meet the target.

The whole thing is complex. One of the reasons we don’t meet the targets is that a lot of people from the target demographic think the armed forces isn’t for them. They think they won’t be welcome and will end up being bullied and discriminated against. That’s why we have to go out of our way to demonstrate that we are welcoming and will deal with bullying and discrimination.

Ultimately it’s about about closing with the Queen’s enemies and defeating them (and supporting those that do). We need the best people for the job and it shouldn’t matter what colour they are or what gender or orientation they are.

If people who are not white and male are not joining we need to find out why and address any artificial barriers.
 
I agree. It is quite difficult. The people who cal the shots want service personnel from more diverse backgrounds than has been the case.

The problem then is unless you set some sort of quantifiable aspiration - a target - nothing will happen.

But as soon as you create a target there is a danger that people will start massaging the system in order to meet the target.

The whole thing is complex. One of the reasons we don’t meet the targets is that a lot of people from the target demographic think the armed forces isn’t for them. They think they won’t be welcome and will end up being bullied and discriminated against. That’s why we have to go out of our way to demonstrate that we are welcoming and will deal with bullying and discrimination.

Ultimately it’s about about closing with the Queen’s enemies and defeating them (and supporting those that do). We need the best people for the job and it shouldn’t matter what colour they are or what gender or orientation they are.

If people who are not white and male are not joining we need to find out why and address any artificial barriers.
Why have "target" you are supposed to want the best, not x amount of black, brown, gay, female etc.
There are lots of reasons the army doesn't recruit from the "targets", for females it can be, because some of the jobs are physically demanding (you don't see to many female coal miners, road workers or bin men) for immigrants or recent decendants, no family connection (although it slowing down, most people with roots in the UK of a century had someone serving a few generations ago), for Muslims, because for some reason the UK keeps interfering in Muslim countries and leaving them in worst state than before, for some blacks rastafatians it's because cannabis use is banned in the army and there are plenty of other examples.

Yet the narrative its the Armys fault and more must be done for the poor hard done minorities.

Then some tossbag officers think they are being clever by stating there are no quotas because they used the word target instead. Remember when they said there wouldn't be duel fitness standards for women joining the Army? Technically the words they used were the truth, they just dropped fitness standards for both sexes.

White males having been joining (or staying) in the numbers needed for nearly every year for the last 30 years but I don't see the MOD falling over itself to rectify that.
 
If people who are not white and male are not joining we need to find out why and address any artificial barriers.
For a goodly chunk of the non-white population the armed forces are simply not seen as being 'desirable' or 'prestigious'. Same for the police. There's a cultural aversion that is going to take generations to overcome.
 
Is there any reason that the other roles shouldn’t be 50/50(ish) male/female?
There isn’t any valid reason why this couldn’t be the case. Just like scaffolders could be 50% women and midwifes 50% male.
 
There isn’t any valid reason why this couldn’t be the case. Just like scaffolders could be 50% women and midwifes 50% male.

He He He

I wanted to be a gynaecologist - But I would have been doing it for all the wrong reasons and ended up in jail and a lifetime on a register :) :)
 
Swift was commissioned in to the Royal Regiment of Wales on 1 September 1989. He served as commanding officer of the 2nd Battalion, the Royal Welsh during the Iraq War, for which he was appointed an Officer of the Order of the British Empire(OBE) on 25 July 2008. He became Commander of the 20th Armoured Brigade in May 2012.

Swift was appointed Director of Strategy in March 2016;[5] the post was re-titled as Assistant Chief of the General Staff in September 2018. He became General Officer Commanding the 3rd (United Kingdom) Division in November 2018. It was announced on 30 January 2020 that Swift would become Chief of Defence People(CDP), succeeding Lieutenant General Richard Nugee in late February 2020. Swift was promoted to lieutenant general on 27 February 2020.
Yeah, sod all experience of Command...typical PPE wonk...no experience outside of university...Common Purpose graduate...
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Joining the forces in many cultures - especially South Asian - would be seen as unambitious.
And yet the Indian Army had over 2 million regulars and reservists and the Pakistan Army has over a million.

Are you sure that isn’t a convenient excuse? Are you sure it’s not more about the perception that they will not be wanted rather than any lack of prestige?
 
And yet the Indian Army had over 2 million regulars and reservists and the Pakistan Army has over a million.

Are you sure that isn’t a convenient excuse? Are you sure it’s not more about the perception that they will not be wanted rather than any lack of prestige?

There was a Indian Sikh in my troop (top tom after 2 years and promoted) he said his peers with an Indian background had better things to do than join the British Army. **** all to do with a perception that they would not be wanted. Its used to get on his tits that the hierarchy were always trying to use him as a role model for other Sikhs/Indians, (Quite a few decent black/brown people used to get pissed off with the Army trying to use them to recruit more black/brown people).
 
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CrazyLegs!

War Hero
There was a Indian Sikh in my troop (top tom after 2 years and promoted) he said his peers with an Indian background had better things to do than join the British Army. **** all to do with a perception that they would not be wanted. Its used to get on his tits that the hierarchy were always trying to use him as a role model for other Sikhs/Indians, (Quite a few decent black/brown people used to get pissed off with the Army trying to use them to recruit move black/brown people).

Had a Sikh lad at a previous unit, he said the same. Most want to be doctors or work in STEM fields.

He wasn’t only in the Army cos he couldn’t do any of that either, he had a BSc from before he was in, and was doing a part time MSc on the side.
 
And yet the Indian Army had over 2 million regulars and reservists and the Pakistan Army has over a million.

Are you sure that isn’t a convenient excuse? Are you sure it’s not more about the perception that they will not be wanted rather than any lack of prestige?
See the comment above regarding the principle source of recruits to the British Army being from a council estate in the North East.

And I'm guessing you've not seen third world poverty...
 
Had a Sikh lad at a previous unit, he said the same. Most want to be doctors or work in STEM fields.

Ive just had a look at the Jewish stats for the legal profession, Jews and Sikhs combined make up 1.1% (.4 & .7) of the UK population but 5% (3 and 2) of the legal profession. (Also 21% BAME).

Things like that are echoed across society (Flight attendant = Women, Corner shop owner = Indian decent, Hatton Garden Jewellers = Jews, RAF = Gays etc)

Its seems the MOD cant quite understand this.
 
I wonder if that's part of the problem. They've got to the top by working stupid hours and now haven't the practice in taking a condor moment to see if they are actually driving the organisation in the right strategic direction.
I read a lot of books by successful entrepreneurs and about entrepreneurism. Two things that consistently stand out; successful entrepreneurs dedicate a lot of time for thinking. They also read a lot.
 
Enlistment in the ranks of the British Army was traditionally an escape from poverty, social disgrace, or legal problems. The Cold War Army had the luxury of a superb reputation after WW2, and large pool of baby boomers to recruit from. It was able to offer an adventurous career (and a reasonable standard of living) as an alternative to the mines, shipyards or farm labouring.

I'm not entirely sure what the 21st century Army has to offer recruits. Maybe a four year route out of a sink estate or an employment blackspot. The problem is that a criminal records check will automatically exclude much of that demographic.

I can fully understand why aspirational people of any ethnic background aren't interested in the Army. I also get the feeling that recruits of an adventurous disposition are likely to become rapidly disillusioned. I wouldn't touch the Army with a barge pole if I was 18 again.
 

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