Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

Sarastro

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
I hope by "connections" you don't mean that Army rules were ignored because his father was an ex officer.

Because that would be a piss poor example of values and standards.

Not necessarily. It's a bad example of values and standards if he said one thing in general, and behaved differently with his kid. But plenty can and do openly disagree with Army policies. Someone who was skeptical about medical entry standards, allowed for the long and respectable history of lying about age/medical/other criteria to serve, and treated others by the same standard, isn't breaching any Values I can see. "Integrity" does not always mean "following the rules".

There are probably many more than 4 that dont manage their conditions and become expensive and time consuming problems for the army.
Quite possibly, but a system which is has difficulty telling the difference isn't better just because it blanket bans all of them. Better a system that judged people based on performance rather than presumption - radical idea, I know. Besides, I'm fairly sure the medical entry system has little to do with value for the Army and selecting the best potential soldiers, and a lot to do with fear of liability.

PS Re: above - you don't know he enforced the rule previously, is my point.
 
Not necessarily. It's a bad example of values and standards if he said one thing in general, and behaved differently with his kid. But plenty can and do openly disagree with Army policies. Someone who was skeptical about medical entry standards, allowed for the long and respectable history of lying about age/medical/other criteria to serve, and treated others by the same standard, isn't breaching any Values I can see. "Integrity" does not always mean "following the rules".


Quite possibly, but a system which is has difficulty telling the difference isn't better just because it blanket bans all of them. Better a system that judged people based on performance rather than presumption - radical idea, I know. Besides, I'm fairly sure the medical entry system has little to do with value for the Army and selecting the best potential soldiers, and a lot to do with fear of liability.

I'm well aware the system is a bit shit. The solution is to fix the system, not wait for a call from an ex officer mate. If a well built and healthy lad comes from a rundown estate and lives with his single mum should he be binned because he doesn't have "connections"?

Very much sounds like an old boys network where the rules apply to plebs not them.
 
BMI is flawed as an entrance test.
But using someone's "connections" in the military to get around the rules is also pretty flawed.
If the rule is wrong get it changed, not ignore it when it's an old mate wanting a favour, because that is a breach of values and standards.
Your point is based on a really big 'if', and looks a lot like confirmation bias. The likelihood that any of us were either there or privy to the exact exchange is vanishingly small so none of us can really tell from that anecdote what happened. You seem to be choosing to interpret it through the lens of institutional corruption, but several others on here think there might be an alternative, and equally plausible, explanation.

As I said, each to their own.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
Not at all! I hold no starry eyed vision of "Rag & Oil" however it was an entirely different creature to "Radio Cabs & Taxies" with a completely different character..

Logistics is made up from two linked but entirely separate functions.. transport and inventory management. Military transport is essentially a man management and field skills oriented activity with a high geared "few chiefs and lots of indians" structure and a reasonably simple mechanism. Military Inventory Management is an amalgam of specialist knowledge and experience with an ability to construct and operate complex plans to cope with unpredictable demand for highly constrained resources. This required a much flatter and diverse structure with many more chiefs and more specialised indians..

Put the two together and you get Military Mayonnaise..! Mix shouty drivers with geeky clerks and what did you think was going to happen?

RAOC and REME would have made a slightly more sensible functional combination IMHO...! Either that or keep the functional roles separate as in AGC!

However we are drifting slightly....!
I agree wholeheartedly, but it's too late now.

Stand by for RASC v2.0!
 

DSJ

LE
Possibly, but even when I was in, I didn't judge officers by how nice they were, but how effective. It's a simple flowchart:

1. Are they shit at their job? If yes -> they are Shit. If no -> go to 2.
2. Are they nice to me? If yes -> they are Not Shit. If no -> they are a Bit Shit.

The problem was the proportion of Shit officers, not the proportion of Bit Shit officers.

I had some advice from a friend's father (himself ex-officer) before I joined. His advice and thoughts were that there were three kinds of CO - sh1ts, bastards and nice chaps.

Nice chaps are just that - extremely nice but generally ineffective and the unit will perform/behave accordingly.
Sh1ts are in it for themselves and themselves only, and should be avoided at all costs.
Bastards are the hard-working bunch who are not necessarily nice to you, but want the job(s) done properly.

He suggested that wherever/whenever possible I should look to work for a bastard. I ended up working for/under all three types at various stages.
 
Your point is based on a really big 'if', and looks a lot like confirmation bias. The likelihood that any of us were either there or privy to the exact exchange is vanishingly small so none of us can really tell from that anecdote what happened. You seem to be choosing to interpret it through the lens of institutional corruption, but several others on here think there might be an alternative, and equally plausible, explanation.

As I said, each to their own.
I'm going of what Stonker wrote.
There is no explanation for using "connections" to get around a rule other than a bit of minor corruption.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
I had some advice from a friend's father (himself ex-officer) before I joined. His advice and thoughts were that there were three kinds of CO - sh1ts, bastards and nice chaps.

Nice chaps are just that - extremely nice but generally ineffective and the unit will perform/behave accordingly.
Sh1ts are in it for themselves and themselves only, and should be avoided at all costs.
Bastards are the hard-working bunch who are not necessarily nice to you, but want the job(s) done properly.

He suggested that wherever/whenever possible I should look to work for a bastard. I ended up working for/under all three types at various stages.
Best CO I ever had (10 Corps Tpt Regt RCT 87-89) was a thoroughly nice man and an excellent commanding officer.

It can be done. His successor however was a very different matter (but he's dead now!)
 
I'm going of what Stonker wrote.
There is no explanation for using "connections" to get around a rule other than a bit of minor corruption.
Just so we're straight on this one, you've unequivocally pronounced this incident to be 'corruption' solely on Stonker's choice of language?
 
Just so we're straight on this one, you've unequivocally pronounced this incident to be 'corruption' solely on Stonker's choice of language?

Fairly much so unless he meant something else about an ex Lt Col using his connections to get around a military rule, to benefit his son.
 

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
Fairly much so unless he meant something else about an ex Lt Col using his connections to get around a military rule, to benefit his son.
Just a matter of getting a grownup to overrule a ‘computer says no’ moment. BMI is pretty useless as a measure of individual suitability. Many trained athletes would fall foul of it, especially the chunky ones.
 
Just a matter of getting a grownup to overrule a ‘computer says no’ moment. BMI is pretty useless as a measure of individual suitability. Many trained athletes would fall foul of it, especially the chunky ones.

Is the solution to fix the problem or is the solution for daddy to phone one of his chums so the rules that apply to everyone else, can be ignored?

Everyone seems to think BMI is a **** test for suitability but no one wants to change it. Instead, potential candidates have to hope one of their parents is "connected" to ignore the rules.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
Is the solution to fix the problem or is the solution for daddy to phone one of his chums so the rules that apply to everyone else, can be ignored?

Everyone seems to think BMI is a **** test for suitability but no one wants to change it. Instead, potential candidates have to hope one of their parents is "connected" to ignore the rules.
That chip on your shoulder is getting larger and larger now you are just a no-mark civvie, like most on here!
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
That chip on your shoulder is getting larger and larger now you are just a no-mark civvie, like most on here!
You could be forgiven for thinking that the Army just didn't measure up to his standards - what's really amazing is that he tolerated it for so long.
 
Fairly much so unless he meant something else about an ex Lt Col using his connections to get around a military rule, to benefit his son.
Ah! “Unless he meant something else“ - a shade of grey creeping in there? Do you think there was even the slightest possibility that the father in question may have simply phoned someone to find out how to lodge an appeal, and that Stonker just chose an ambiguous phrase?

The idea of appealing a medical decision isn't exactly new, but people don't always know immediately what to do in these situations.
 
Just a matter of getting a grownup to overrule a ‘computer says no’ moment. BMI is pretty useless as a measure of individual suitability. Many trained athletes would fall foul of it, especially the chunky ones.

Even today, I can run 10 miles (admittedly not very fast) get a shower and go straight to the pub.

I watched the army's current fitness tests on YouTube. I reckon that, given NAAFI breaks and a good scoff, I could repeat those tests straight through a working day. Although I might be a tad sore in the morning...

On the basis of my BMI, I would not have been allowed to join the army.

Any BMI requirement strikes me as arbitrary nonsense.
 

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
Is the solution to fix the problem or is the solution for daddy to phone one of his chums so the rules that apply to everyone else, can be ignored?

Everyone seems to think BMI is a **** test for suitability but no one wants to change it. Instead, potential candidates have to hope one of their parents is "connected" to ignore the rules.
I’ve explained it once for you.
 
You could be forgiven for thinking that the Army just didn't measure up to his standards - what's really amazing is that he tolerated it for so long.
By his own declared principles, he should have changed it to meet the required standards. Any other approach, such as tolerance of flawed behaviour in colleagues and superiors, can only be described as corruption.
 
That chip on your shoulder is getting larger and larger now you are just a no-mark civvie, like most on here!

Hmmmmm Stacker suggests making a shit system better rather than having your ex officer father call a friend to ignore a rule . The duty alkie disagrees.
There's a shock.
 

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