Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

I was being told, at the time the Deepcut investigation was front page news, that the Army Board (?) had made a conscious decision to stand back from all the fuss, on the basis that across the army as a whole, suicide rates were worse than was seen at Deepcut.

I do not know if that was true, but it's an interesting thought, and believable, even if no more than a rumour.

The suicide rate in Catterick was far worse.
 
Here I'm reminded of the son of a ret'd Lt Col (RE) with whom I worked (20+ years ago)

The youth was adjudged to have a BMI that ruled him out for military service

He was a University rowing blue at the time. Early twenties, muscles in his spit, not a gram of spare flesh on him, resting heart rate somewhere a long way south of 50BPM

. . . . and the rules said he wasn't acceptably healthy

Fortunately his dad still had connections.
I hope by "connections" you don't mean that Army rules were ignored because his father was an ex officer.

Because that would be a piss poor example of values and standards.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
Perhaps, and this is but speculation, that the attitude was "Oh well, they are just Loggies and - Oh look, is that a squirrel?"

Deepcut was a slow train crash, the results of which should have been obvious to those setting the points. RAOC and RCT were never likely to be a sensible combination.. even in an Infantry unit you keep the MT section well away from the stores! RLC and the whole loggie system is still suffering from the crass nature of that amalgamation, Deepcut was only one of the more obvious examples..

There are many more..!
Don't tell me, you still have your RAOC capbadge sewn on the inside of your mess kit jacket so it's 'close to your heart':roll:

ETA: Just you wait until the RLC assimilates the REME! You heard it here first.
 

TamH70

MIA
The suicide rate in Catterick was far worse.

It wouldn't surprise me. I never knew anyone who actually killed themselves there but there were quite a lot of near misses. As an example, when I was doing my regular recruit course in Helles Barracks, (11 Signal Regiment's home at the time), the rate of young lads trying to off themselves as a way of getting out of the Army was so high that the C.O. of the establishment threw an absolute wobbly and made it plain that it was now a disciplinary matter that he was going to take very seriously from henceforward. I knew a guy who took an overdose of Brufen not long afterwards, and when he got out of DKMH, got slammed straight into jail. He eventually did get discharged but it wasn't a pleasant experience for him.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
It wouldn't surprise me. I never knew anyone who actually killed themselves there but there were quite a lot of near misses. As an example, when I was doing my regular recruit course in Helles Barracks, (11 Signal Regiment's home at the time), the rate of young lads trying to off themselves as a way of getting out of the Army was so high that the C.O. of the establishment threw an absolute wobbly and made it plain that it was now a disciplinary matter that he was going to take very seriously from henceforward. I knew a guy who took an overdose of Brufen not long afterwards, and when he got out of DKMH, got slammed straight into jail. He eventually did get discharged but it wasn't a pleasant experience for him.
He wouldn't have felt a thing!
 
the rate of young lads trying to off themselves as a way of getting out of the Army was so high that the C.O. of the establishment threw an absolute wobbly and made it plain that it was now a disciplinary matter that he was going to take very seriously from henceforward.

"Anyone found committing suicide will be in serious trouble!"
 
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Compare, for example, the Times article by Adm Nick Hine on autism, and the fact that he would have been barred from service less than 5 years ago had he tried joining,

I think you'd find a decent proportion of the fleet lamenting that he wasn't to be honest...
 
The changes in attitude to mental health over the past ten years make it actually one of the best managed issues - I had a soldier with something presenting like depression who was really well managed, and I ran into four years later still in and doing well.
which is long overdue, I was discharged with no support in 2006, had it happened a couple of years later I'd almost certainly still be serving now...
 

Sarastro

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
I think you'd find a decent proportion of the fleet lamenting that he wasn't to be honest...
Possibly, but even when I was in, I didn't judge officers by how nice they were, but how effective. It's a simple flowchart:

1. Are they shit at their job? If yes -> they are Shit. If no -> go to 2.
2. Are they nice to me? If yes -> they are Not Shit. If no -> they are a Bit Shit.

The problem was the proportion of Shit officers, not the proportion of Bit Shit officers.
 
I hope by "connections" you don't mean that Army rules were ignored because his father was an ex officer.

Because that would be a piss poor example of values and standards.
Hmm. Maybe, maybe not. Each to their own, I suppose.

My first impression was that the father knew enough about the otherwise opaque system to direct a well-placed question about process.

There were more than a few instances of this kind of medical 'failure' happening around 2013-15 because the BMI test (which is conceptually flawed because of exactly this kind of thing) was being administered right at the start of the screening process by medical staff who did not have the agency to do anything other than apply the rules deontologically. Medical rejections were being handed out before the potential recruit got anywhere near an adult with the latitude to make an informed decision. Once that was noted, they amended the system so that rejections were reviewed by a grown-up before being finalised.

'Army rules' aren't perfect and do need challenging from time to time. Examples like this aren't always a breach of values and standards. In fact, since the Chilcot Review, the notion of 'reasonable challenge' has been promoted as good for the organisation.
 

HE117

LE
Don't tell me, you still have your RAOC capbadge sewn on the inside of your mess kit jacket so it's 'close to your heart':roll:

ETA: Just you wait until the RLC assimilates the REME! You heard it here first.
Not at all! I hold no starry eyed vision of "Rag & Oil" however it was an entirely different creature to "Radio Cabs & Taxies" with a completely different character..

Logistics is made up from two linked but entirely separate functions.. transport and inventory management. Military transport is essentially a man management and field skills oriented activity with a high geared "few chiefs and lots of indians" structure and a reasonably simple mechanism. Military Inventory Management is an amalgam of specialist knowledge and experience with an ability to construct and operate complex plans to cope with unpredictable demand for highly constrained resources. This required a much flatter and diverse structure with many more chiefs and more specialised indians..

Put the two together and you get Military Mayonnaise..! Mix shouty drivers with geeky clerks and what did you think was going to happen?

RAOC and REME would have made a slightly more sensible functional combination IMHO...! Either that or keep the functional roles separate as in AGC!

However we are drifting slightly....!
 
Hmm. Maybe, maybe not. Each to their own, I suppose.

My first impression was that the father knew enough about the otherwise opaque system to direct a well-placed question about process.

There were more than a few instances of this kind of medical 'failure' happening around 2013-15 because the BMI test (which is conceptually flawed because of exactly this kind of thing) was being administered right at the start of the screening process by medical staff who did not have the agency to do anything other than apply the rules deontologically. Medical rejections were being handed out before the potential recruit got anywhere near an adult with the latitude to make an informed decision. Once that was noted, they amended the system so that rejections were reviewed by a grown-up before being finalised.

'Army rules' aren't perfect and do need challenging from time to time. Examples like this aren't always a breach of values and standards. In fact, since the Chilcot Review, the notion of 'reasonable challenge' has been promoted as good for the organisation.

BMI is flawed as an entrance test.
But using someone's "connections" in the military to get around the rules is also pretty flawed.
If the rule is wrong get it changed, not ignore it when it's an old mate wanting a favour, because that is a breach of values and standards.
 
Not at all! I hold no starry eyed vision of "Rag & Oil" however it was an entirely different creature to "Radio Cabs & Taxies" with a completely different character..

Logistics is made up from two linked but entirely separate functions.. transport and inventory management. Military transport is essentially a man management and field skills oriented activity with a high geared "few chiefs and lots of indians" structure and a reasonably simple mechanism. Military Inventory Management is an amalgam of specialist knowledge and experience with an ability to construct and operate complex plans to cope with unpredictable demand for highly constrained resources. This required a much flatter and diverse structure with many more chiefs and more specialised indians..

Put the two together and you get Military Mayonnaise..! Mix shouty drivers with geeky clerks and what did you think was going to happen?

RAOC and REME would have made a slightly more sensible functional combination IMHO...! Either that or keep the functional roles separate as in AGC!

However we are drifting slightly....!

How does the Indian Navy deal with logistics? They have lots of Chiefs, and they’re pretty much all Indians too!
 
BMI is flawed as an entrance test.
But using someone's "connections" in the military to get around the rules is also pretty flawed.
If the rule is wrong get it changed, not ignore it when it's an old mate wanting a favour, because that is a breach of values and standards.
Explain?
 

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