Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

Allan74

Old-Salt
You assume she said No during the proceedings.
Some people shout Rape hours / days / years after the event - and for varying reasons.
Fair comment...but looking at the context of the debate, with comments WRT to toys etc I thought it a reasonable juddgement to make that the No was issued during proceedings.
 

Sarastro

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
This is the key difference. While I don't completely agree with your position, I think there's a big difference between someone who's just had their entire life turned upside down age 50, and someone who is a suicide risk just in normal jogging while they're in basic training.

I think we need to be able to support people who're going through tough times without resorting to kicking them out immediately. I think that in most cases (not all) someone on the suicide risk register in basic officer training is probably unsuited to commission into a high stress job with responsibility for others.

Part of the problem is the incoherence in the Army, possibly the other Services too, between joining standards and processes, and the same for those serving. Mental health, conditions like autism, some allergies, some genetic dispositions (i.e. sickle cell) and when I joined still flat feet, are treated quite sensibly on a case-by-case basis as a risk factor to be treated or managed for those who are serving, but are blanket bars often well behind current medical opinion for joining.

This used to be explained as "it's easier to bar than deal with", assuming each exception takes disproportionate resources to deal with. But that too doesn't make sense in a time when we have been spending large amounts on trying to recruit small proportions of the population with a historically low joining rate, and saying it is because we need the people .

Compare, for example, the Times article by Adm Nick Hine on autism, and the fact that he would have been barred from service less than 5 years ago had he tried joining, and the Army is possibly still dismissing serving soldiers on the same grounds, and certainly was in 2018: Afghan war veteran 'devastated' as army kicks him out over Asperger’s diagnosis

I knew at least four similar stories from guys who hid, respectively, flat feet, asthma, peanut allergies, and eczma - all of whom ended up being successful and high quality soldiers, some in the most physically taxing roles - because their understanding of the severity and how to manage their conditions was better than a one line note in a medical record. The changes in attitude to mental health over the past ten years make it actually one of the best managed issues - I had a soldier with something presenting like depression who was really well managed, and I ran into four years later still in and doing well.

There is a lack of coherence across the organisation(s) which makes understanding the rules and trust in them pretty hard. My advice to many joiners would often be: lie where you can get away with it, because the rules clearly don't always make sense, and something that will be fine the day after attestation is apparently fatal to joining the day before. Not a great position to be in.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
The Deepcut Review makes sobering reading and shows how the poor SNCOs can really taint the pot.
Pity they didn't 'review' Catterick and elsewhere, Deepcut is only the poster-boy for this unfortunate fact. Likewise, there's been a few suicides in Tidworth/Larkhill recently, but you don't see them being publicised.

Deepcut wasn't only enabled by poor quality SNCOs, the constraints on resource were legion for many years and were mainly the result of poor and misguided senior leadership.
 

Allan74

Old-Salt
Pity they didn't 'review' Catterick and elsewhere, Deepcut is only the poster-boy for this unfortunate fact. Likewise, there's been a few suicides in Tidworth/Larkhill recently, but you don't see them being publicised.

Deepcut wasn't only enabled by poor quality SNCOs, the constraints on resource were legion for many years and were mainly the result of poor and misguided senior leadership.
Could not agree more.
 
Pity they didn't 'review' Catterick and elsewhere, Deepcut is only the poster-boy for this unfortunate fact.
I was being told, at the time the Deepcut investigation was front page news, that the Army Board (?) had made a conscious decision to stand back from all the fuss, on the basis that across the army as a whole, suicide rates were worse than was seen at Deepcut.

I do not know if that was true, but it's an interesting thought, and believable, even if no more than a rumour.
 
I knew at least four similar stories from guys who hid, respectively, flat feet, asthma, peanut allergies, and eczma - all of whom ended up being successful and high quality soldiers, some in the most physically taxing roles - because their understanding of the severity and how to manage their conditions was better than a one line note in a medical record. The changes in attitude to mental health over the past ten years make it actually one of the best managed issues - I had a soldier with something presenting like depression who was really well managed, and I ran into four years later still in and doing well.

There are probably many more than 4 that dont manage their conditions and become expensive and time consuming problems for the army.
 
some genetic dispositions (i.e. sickle cell) and when I joined still flat feet, are treated quite sensibly on a case-by-case basis as a risk factor to be treated or managed for those who are serving, but are blanket bars often well behind current medical opinion for joining.

This used to be explained as "it's easier to bar than deal with", assuming each exception takes disproportionate resources to deal with.
Here I'm reminded of the son of a ret'd Lt Col (RE) with whom I worked (20+ years ago)

The youth was adjudged to have a BMI that ruled him out for military service

He was a University rowing blue at the time. Early twenties, muscles in his spit, not a gram of spare flesh on him, resting heart rate somewhere a long way south of 50BPM

. . . . and the rules said he wasn't acceptably healthy

Fortunately his dad still had connections.
 
Another at Bulford.
A British Army soldier fondled a female colleague's breasts while she slept and then claimed he had been reaching for a TV remote control, a court martial heard - You couldn't make that up!
Not guilty on all three counts according to the DM.

Soldier cleared of fondling female collegues breasts.
 

HE117

LE
I was being told, at the time the Deepcut investigation was front page news, that the Army Board (?) had made a conscious decision to stand back from all the fuss, on the basis that across the army as a whole, suicide rates were worse than was seen at Deepcut.

I do not know if that was true, but it's an interesting thought, and believable, even if no more than a rumour.
Perhaps, and this is but speculation, that the attitude was "Oh well, they are just Loggies and - Oh look, is that a squirrel?"

Deepcut was a slow train crash, the results of which should have been obvious to those setting the points. RAOC and RCT were never likely to be a sensible combination.. even in an Infantry unit you keep the MT section well away from the stores! RLC and the whole loggie system is still suffering from the crass nature of that amalgamation, Deepcut was only one of the more obvious examples..

There are many more..!
 

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