Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

Why take the risk? The army can be extremely stressful with the addition to having weapons available.
It already does - young males are the highest risk category for suicide. And it is undermanned. And it already takes measured risk with all of its other MLD/MND soldiers by not immediately discharging them.

If someone is temperamentally unsuitable or unlikely to recover within 12 months then I agree, they should be discharged.
 
RIP, Certa Cito.

”Like“ was for agreement rather than Taff’s death.

I’m sure you remember the three lads at 7 in Bos too. Max, Paddy and then Si back in Germany. None of them could have been predicted.
The horrible thing of that was because I was in NI at the time I did Paddy's bearer party. The rumour was that they all had agreed a 'suicide pact'. Very sad.

Max had MH issues and was always trying to live up to his Father's very exacting standards and the start of his downward spiral was when he got 28 days. I was in the same troop as him until he got out and then he was inter-sqn posted.
 
Be as abusive as you like.

I disagree with your assertion that she'd have had a successful career. She would have remained a potential liability and should have been discharged from Sandhurst the moment that she was identified as a suicide risk.
Agreed , a ticking time bomb further down the line.
 
Are you actually as much as a cûnt in real life as you are in this post?

She wouldn’t have been a liability, and if treated properly, would’ve likely had a successful career.
She should have been given all the support available by the NHS as a civvie, the military are in the business of producing fit to fight officers and OR's, if she had been tagged as "unstable" earlier on the course then that should warrant medical intervention, back squad for treatment perhaps?
 
Unless they actually say “I’m thinking of doing myself in”, how the hell do you know?

I have very recent, real life experience of this. I knew my friend was seriously upset due to a turn of life events, but not once did I think he was going to top himself. Not once. If he was still in the mob, should we have shown him the door?

It’s more a rhetorical question, I don’t expect a reply, but if you do, tread carefully. I’ve lost a mate.

In fact, we’ve all lost a mate.

I'm very sorry you lost a mate.

The simple reality is that if someone is determined to kill themselves, it is incredibly difficult (and frequently impossible) to stop them.

If he was still in the mob, he should have received treatment and then been eased out into civi street. I am talking about a managed medical discharge with the assistance of CPNs, and any other civilian agencies. Frequently there is no good outcome for people with suicidal ideation, but the forces is not a place for them to be.
 
I'm very sorry you lost a mate.

The simple reality is that if someone is determined to kill themselves, it is incredibly difficult (and frequently impossible) to stop them.

If he was still in the mob, he should have received treatment and then been eased out into civi street. I am talking about a managed medical discharge with the assistance of CPNs, and any other civilian agencies. Frequently there is no good outcome for people with suicidal ideation, but the forces is not a place for them to be.
Why, we're undermanned, you're just adding to the duty and MS burden by binning people outright.
 
I'm very sorry you lost a mate.

The simple reality is that if someone is determined to kill themselves, it is incredibly difficult (and frequently impossible) to stop them.

If he was still in the mob, he should have received treatment and then been eased out into civi street. I am talking about a managed medical discharge with the assistance of CPNs, and any other civilian agencies. Frequently there is no good outcome for people with suicidal ideation, but the forces is not a place for them to be.
I have a good mate who served a number of years with SF and hid his MH issues because of the stigma attached. When he left he was in a very dark place and the Regt have helped him no end since after he reached out for help. The big issue with the forces till is stigma. Asking for MH help and assistance is STILL seen as a sign of weakness which is absolutely appalling I'm afraid
 
It already does - young males are the highest risk category for suicide. And it is undermanned. And it already takes measured risk with all of its other MLD/MND soldiers by not immediately discharging them.

If someone is temperamentally unsuitable or unlikely to recover within 12 months then I agree, they should be discharged.

No it doesn't, just because young males are the highest risk doesn't mean that the Army has to let suicidal people serve.
Clearly the army didn't get it right with this woman.
 
We already take the risk, and we have a duty of care not to abandon people due to mental health issues.

What a load of emotional shit. "Abandon" them? Who said that? No one, so don't make up shite.
They go through the medical chain and get discharged.
 
Why, we're undermanned, you're just adding to the duty and MS burden by binning people outright.
Deepcut was letting through people with mental health problems, possibly to help the numbers, the majority of them were of no use to the military and just drained resources. Quite a few were discharged eventually having cost the army time and money while doing **** all of any use.
 
Spot on - if the Forces have broken you they have a duty of care to fix you and NOT throw you on the scrap heap

"scrap heap" more emotive shit.
Being around weapons, in what could be a highly stressful environment isn't best for suicidal people either.
 
I'm very sorry you lost a mate.

The simple reality is that if someone is determined to kill themselves, it is incredibly difficult (and frequently impossible) to stop them.

If he was still in the mob, he should have received treatment and then been eased out into civi street. I am talking about a managed medical discharge with the assistance of CPNs, and any other civilian agencies. Frequently there is no good outcome for people with suicidal ideation, but the forces is not a place for them to be.

Nobody knew that’s what he had in mind. He may not have even known himself until the day of. We’ll never know. My point is that it’s almost impossible to identify those at risk, unless they openly say that’s what’s on their mind.

As a completely different example, many women experience post-natal depression. Not all, but a significant number for it to be a well-known thing. A few of them will commit suicide. Do you put all women with PND on suicide watch, ”just in case”? No, of course not. So how do you ID those that are going to go on to the next stage and end it all? Again, a rhetorical question. If we could answer it, we’d be a lot happier all ways round.

It’s predicting the unpredictable, but the consequences of getting it wrong are quite literally life and death. I think it’s also true to say that in a pressured pass/fail training environment, identifying MH issues and labelling them as such might add additional pressure, thus worsening the situation. Having a more supportive environment might help to train-in those individuals who might benefit from a bit of help.

Another example - I was not very confident with weapons for the first few years of my service. As a Corps troop, we didn’t do much with them, and the Method of Instruction seemed to be a Skilly screaming at me. Adding pressure to what was already a pressured environment. He’s on the range every week, I‘m on it once or twice a year. After a few years I decided to do something about it and joined the shooting team. The seniors on the team worked with me on a relaxed range afternoon (every week) and I became a very competent shot, completely familiar with the rifle and pistol. All I needed was a bit of help and practice. Not booted out because I was lacking in confidence with weapons.

Sorry for the rambling post, but the mob has been doing better than it was, in my view.
 
"scrap heap" more emotive shit.
Being around weapons, in what could be a highly stressful environment isn't best for suicidal people either.
Emotive shit ok - Read the rest of the context before you start spouting your vitriol. If the Army or Forces have broken you they have a duty of care to fix you simple
 
The big issue with the forces till is stigma. Asking for MH help and assistance is STILL seen as a sign of weakness which is absolutely appalling I'm afraid
I'm sorry, but I don't really agree. I was OC of a PRU and there was no stigma attached to MH issues. In fact those involved in dealing with it are probably more aware than Civilian equivalents. Individuals in the military I can't speak for, but as an institution we are supporting people with stigma.
 
I'm sorry, but I don't really agree. I was OC of a PRU and there was no stigma attached to MH issues. In fact those involved in dealing with it are probably more aware than Civilian equivalents. Individuals in the military I can't speak for, but as an institution we are supporting people with stigma.
I have been out for 4 years now and when I left the number of people who were reaching out for help was very minimal, hopefully it has changed
 
Emotive shit ok - Read the rest of the context before you start spouting your vitriol. If the Army or Forces have broken you they have a duty of care to fix you simple
There is no context, no suggested anyone should be thrown on the "scrap heap". That's just something you made up.
As for simple, plenty of physical injuries caused by the army can't be fixed. Those people are still discharged.
 

FEASG

LE
A soldier who has stepped forward and admitted having suicidal thoughts would not have access to weapons or ammunition and would not be in those situations.

I know of cases where the exact opposite happened.

My point is that should they be able to recover, they should be allowed to soldier on. I presume you think that if someone has had a suicidal thought once, they may never recover and will always be a risk?

Sadly, I think that is pretty much the case. I don't say that lightly, nor do I say it from a position of ignorance. I do have some knowledge of the subject. Though others may dispute my opinion - and are welcome to do so.

From an administrative perspective, I would compare a suicidal soldier to a soldier who experienced a seizure. He might live to be 100 and never have another seizure, but the army would still medically discharge him.
Having been in this situation, I agree, the black dog comes and goes, and even after over a decade, no mater how fleetingly, the End Ex solution presents itself, before getting a grip. The forces are not the place for anyone in this situation, it is counter productive to the whole force.
 
I'm sorry, but I don't really agree. I was OC of a PRU and there was no stigma attached to MH issues. In fact those involved in dealing with it are probably more aware than Civilian equivalents. Individuals in the military I can't speak for, but as an institution we are supporting people with stigma.

The stigma is attached to good lads with MH issues not wanting to be lumped with the idle ******* who have discovered the new shin splints/NFCI.
 
Spot on - if the Forces have broken you they have a duty of care to fix you and NOT throw you on the scrap heap

Not everybody can be fixed, at least to the point where soldiering on is practical.

The forces have an absolute duty to acknowledge your illness (and any part they played in causing it). Beyond that they have a duty to see that your transition to civilian life is managed and that you have a long term support network, financial assistance, and the right to return to the army for further help at any time.
 

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