Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

You can go after the money as an alternative to prosecution, with the threat of prosecution hanging over their heads if they don't pay up. HMRC do it regularly and it obtains significant sums for the public purse.
That means you are encouraging people to steal because the only penalty is paying it back if you get caught.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
Continuity of education hasn't ever been a factor in any HR decisions made in any of the big international companies I've worked for in the last 20 years since leaving the military.
Interesting - how did those companies cope with their people who they deployed to other countries for extended periods? My company routinely deploys US people to other nations for multiple years to bid on opportunities and to subsequently operate them. All that comes with financial arrangements in the ‘package’ for cars, houses and education of children either staying in the US or in whatever country you’ve been sent to.
 
In that case then a cull of Staff Officer posts in line with the size and a reflection of the amount of boots on the ground of the modern army, the money saved could be used to remunerate remainder of the officer corps


Archie
I think that an extra star-level organisation needs to be stood up iot staff that!!

Sent from my SM-G996B using Tapatalk
 

Glad_its_all_over

ADC
Book Reviewer
Interesting - how did those companies cope with their people who they deployed to other countries for extended periods? My company routinely deploys US people to other nations for multiple years to bid on opportunities and to subsequently operate them. All that comes with financial arrangements in the ‘package’ for cars, houses and education of children either staying in the US or in whatever country you’ve been sent to.
Oh, sure - but that's usually individually negotiated with folk senior enough to be sent accompanied. The other point is that it's voluntary, I can think of more US folk (for example) who turned down an extended overseas deployment, even at career disadvantage, than took it up.

When sending UK-based folk overseas, it was a similar process. If they went accompanied, there'd be a package to take in the move, finding (and in some cases, paying for) accommodation and finding educational arrangements locally. Some deployments were delayed in order to accommodate school years. I don't recall anyone ever being offered a subsidy or top up for boarding school fees, not least because HMRC would certainly have looked for that to be on the P11D - and I'm not sure I understand how CEA has avoided being classed as a benefit in kind so far, come to that.
 

Alamo

LE
In that case then a cull of Staff Officer posts in line with the size and a reflection of the amount of boots on the ground of the modern army, the money saved could be used to remunerate remainder of the officer corps


Archie
What do you suggest stops as a result?
 

9.414

War Hero
If you are going to commit fraud you are going to tick a daily attendance sheet.
Also probably wouldnt work for leave, courses, weekends and JPA being knackered.

Hefty jail time is the answer.
You have the cart before the horse. Hefty jail time I agree with, but you have to have the evidence to get them convicted first. There is plenty of experience that shows that the rules are very badly monitored and it needs to be tightened up. When somebody comes a year or so after the event and says where was your spouse last March there are always problems trying to identify locations.

Actually I think it would work very well for leave courses and weekends away, as there would then be a certified contemporaneous record submitted at the time.

The point I was making is that you need to get good evidence, so a daily report certifying should be required. After all it is claiming about £50 per day. You have to certify that to claim a few pounds for HTD or PIE etc. So why not for this allowance?
 
I hesitate to say this, but ”will no one think of the children?”. The whole reason for CEA is so that the kids can be educated without the disruption of service moves. it’s easy to see a situation where an individual is posted to say SHAPE for two years, the parents may decide to claim CEA and the kids get sent to Bryanston (private school in Blandford). Two years later, Pop is posted to Blandford Camp. I think there’s a phase-out of CEA, so the kids can finish their term/year. But then the kids have to go to a state school in Blandford, and perhaps be bullied for ”being Posh” or disadvantaged because of the change in curriculum.Kids got packed off to boarding school to begin with, then hoiked out, simply because of the Army’s posting policies. Not their fault at all.

I wonder if there’s a case to say “if you qualify for CEA, it will be for the remainder of their secondary education to A Levels”, and thus get rid of the risk of this kind of situation arising. All kinds of caveats could be put in place, such as “7 year time bar, you’re in for that long”, ORs must have 7 years left to serve, officers must be on Reg C, “you will NOT be posted within 50 miles of the childrens’ location”, annual performance standards to be met etc. I’m sure the Treasury would not like that too much, but then again the reputational damage to the Army caused by CMing a General is almost incalculable. It’s just not easily quantifiable in pounds Sterling, which is all they care about.

To be clear, I am not defending the guilty bastard, I am questioning whether the scheme could be better provisioned, so that it looks after the kids, which is what it is there for.
 

Caecilius

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
To be clear, I am not defending the guilty bastard, I am questioning whether the scheme could be better provisioned, so that it looks after the kids, which is what it is there for.

It's worth pointing out that some other bits of government run the scheme to provide genuine continuity for the kids. For some other departments once you're claiming CEA, your kid stays in that school. Albeit that's for a much smaller number of claimants and with parents who're on generally lower salaries.
 
Whilst it grieves me to say it @stacker1 is just about correct on this one, they are cheating the system and obtaining their children’s education by committing fraud.

It is really quite easy to comply with the rules and they know what the requirements are, we did it with no problems, it did mean that I had to stop working to accompany Mrs 06 on her postings but so be it.

In our case it did provide continuity of education as we ended up in one year living in three different locations in two different countries.

A plague upon their houses, bunch of thieving bastards for whom I have no sympathy.
 

9.414

War Hero
Roadster, there is already provision in the scheme for continuation until the end of a stage of education, not just the end of term.
 
Not only are these miscreants defrauding the taxpayer whilst pretend they’re living somewhere else, presumably they are also defrauding the Council Tax folk of wherever they are/aren’t living?
 
Someone mentioned the parliamentary expenses thing. It's worth remembering how that started out - they thought it looked bad politically to have a pay rise, put it off several times, the money started to fall dramatically behind comparable private sector or indeed civil service jobs, and the political parties and the parly administration gave them a nod-and-a-wink to make it up on the exes.

Of course - of course! - some of them took this as a green light to drink the pub dry.

Most importantly, it was the kind of mates' rates arrangement that always looks terrible in the light of outside scrutiny. Whatever fuss there would have been in the papers about a straightforward pay rise, it would have been nothing compared to the wholesale clusterfuck that broke out.
The scandal hit in 2009
Between 1999 (£47008) and 2009 (£64,766) is a big increase for Basic wage
It was only after 2009 the increases slowed down

 
You have the cart before the horse. Hefty jail time I agree with, but you have to have the evidence to get them convicted first. There is plenty of experience that shows that the rules are very badly monitored and it needs to be tightened up. When somebody comes a year or so after the event and says where was your spouse last March there are always problems trying to identify locations.

Actually I think it would work very well for leave courses and weekends away, as there would then be a certified contemporaneous record submitted at the time.

The point I was making is that you need to get good evidence, so a daily report certifying should be required. After all it is claiming about £50 per day. You have to certify that to claim a few pounds for HTD or PIE etc. So why not for this allowance?
Indeed, as you say, one has to have the evidence. I dare say that one also has to have a credible and efficient organisation to deal with it, once garnered; not, as in this case, the wretched RMP!
'£98k fraud Colonel' acquitted as investigation labelled 'flawed' '£98k fraud Colonel' acquitted as investigation labelled 'flawed'
 
And the RMO (The Unicorn) was never available to sign the final box.
Breath-taking arrogance from some of those in the chain of command, and a total lack of knowledge of those under their command.
One of my lads was told he could not sign off as we are going to war (Iraq) this was a full month before Christmas leave.
I told him that we haven't been told we are going to war and it makes no difference you are entitled to sign off.

A few weeks later that offered him a posting with promotion on the Friday.
They cancelled it on the Monday.
 
Interesting - how did those companies cope with their people who they deployed to other countries for extended periods? My company routinely deploys US people to other nations for multiple years to bid on opportunities and to subsequently operate them. All that comes with financial arrangements in the ‘package’ for cars, houses and education of children either staying in the US or in whatever country you’ve been sent to.
My own memory of boarding school in the 6th form 1981-83 (where I discovered beer, women and hard work in that order and still had time left over for shed loads of sport and CCF stuff - it really was a two year rehearsal for army life!) was that there were two brothers whose dad worked for a large oil company - Shell springs to mind. He received some help with school fees from the company, though overall things were much cheaper as a % of wages then.
 
Bit more evidence presented today

Prosecutor Sarah Clarke QC read to the court a series of messages from Mrs Welch to her friends, in which she suggests her husband's rank 'daunted' the anonymous complainer.

In one, she said: 'The saddest thing is that one of my London neighbours reported us.

'I have been away a lot recently so I have not been doing the coffee mornings and showing my face.

'I'm trying to put my feet in their shoes to understand why they have done it.

'Perhaps they are daunted by Nick's rank, all of their husbands are two or three ranks below.'

Another said: 'Nick has just been told about the small print in the latest Army regulations which say I can only be away from the house for 90 days so I have just had to dash back up here.'

She also said: 'I always thought that if Nick was not at home I didn't have to be there. I thought that spending weekends in Dorset was allowed.'

Maj Gen Welch (pictured) denies one count of fraud


+3
Maj Gen Welch (pictured) denies one count of fraud

Ms Clarke said the anonymous complaint had been filed to Army housing workers, questioning why the four-bedroom property was often empty 'at a time of housing austerity'.
 
It's worth pointing out that some other bits of government run the scheme to provide genuine continuity for the kids. For some other departments once you're claiming CEA, your kid stays in that school. Albeit that's for a much smaller number of claimants and with parents who're on generally lower salaries.

That's my understanding of FCDO rules for CEA. CS salaries are definitely lower - a Regular Maj is in on significantly more than an FCDO SEO/1st Secretary.
 
Bit more evidence presented today

Prosecutor Sarah Clarke QC read to the court a series of messages from Mrs Welch to her friends, in which she suggests her husband's rank 'daunted' the anonymous complainer.

In one, she said: 'The saddest thing is that one of my London neighbours reported us.

'I have been away a lot recently so I have not been doing the coffee mornings and showing my face.

'I'm trying to put my feet in their shoes to understand why they have done it.

'Perhaps they are daunted by Nick's rank, all of their husbands are two or three ranks below.'

Another said: 'Nick has just been told about the small print in the latest Army regulations which say I can only be away from the house for 90 days so I have just had to dash back up here.'

She also said: 'I always thought that if Nick was not at home I didn't have to be there. I thought that spending weekends in Dorset was allowed.'

Maj Gen Welch (pictured) denies one count of fraud


+3
Maj Gen Welch (pictured) denies one count of fraud

Ms Clarke said the anonymous complaint had been filed to Army housing workers, questioning why the four-bedroom property was often empty 'at a time of housing austerity'.

Oh dear...
 
Bit more evidence presented today

Prosecutor Sarah Clarke QC read to the court a series of messages from Mrs Welch to her friends, in which she suggests her husband's rank 'daunted' the anonymous complainer.

In one, she said: 'The saddest thing is that one of my London neighbours reported us.

'I have been away a lot recently so I have not been doing the coffee mornings and showing my face.

'I'm trying to put my feet in their shoes to understand why they have done it.

'Perhaps they are daunted by Nick's rank, all of their husbands are two or three ranks below.'

Another said: 'Nick has just been told about the small print in the latest Army regulations which say I can only be away from the house for 90 days so I have just had to dash back up here.'

She also said: 'I always thought that if Nick was not at home I didn't have to be there. I thought that spending weekends in Dorset was allowed.'

Maj Gen Welch (pictured) denies one count of fraud


+3
Maj Gen Welch (pictured) denies one count of fraud

Ms Clarke said the anonymous complaint had been filed to Army housing workers, questioning why the four-bedroom property was often empty 'at a time of housing austerity'.
IIRC Miss Sarah Clarke QC used to serve as a Judge Advocate.
 

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