Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

[Stonker]

I believe there is still an offence of 'Furious Peddling' on the books somewhere.

It seems to be a myth. This looks like the closest:

Cyclist convicted - 'wanton and furious driving' | Birketts Solicitors

A cyclist has been found guilty of causing bodily harm by ‘wanton or furious driving’; Mr Alliston was also charged with manslaughter, but found not guilty. This is the first time a cyclist has been charged with an offence of this severity.

www.birketts.co.uk

 

[greenbaggyskin]

Not entirely idle curiosity: when, and where?

Catterick, October 1983. Why, have you found my tooth?

 

[bobthebuilder]

It would be unique, in my 36 years experience, for an OF2 to have powers of CO. I very, very strongly suspect your OC didn’t have them either, and what he actually had was the equivalent of what I described unthread as senior subordinate commander.

I’m sorry but it was by no means unique for OCs of independent or detached subunits to hold powers of CO under AA 1955 (note @Danny_Dravot, I was clear in my previous post that this was pre-AFA). And when the OC was absent, command was handed over to the 2ic who assumed the powers IIRC unlimited by rank.

It was actually quite common for Engineer Squadron OCs to have powers of a CO. There were at least six Independent Squadrons where the OC reported directly to the Brigade (or equivalent) Commander and there was no RHQ in between. Those Squadrons never had an admin relationship with any of the major units it the Brigade. They were stand-alone, with their own UIN etc etc. As an example, OC 59 Independent Commando Squadron had no command or admin relationship with the other Army units in the pre-SDR 3 Commando Brigade. His soldiers did not go in front of CO Cdo Log Regt; the OC dealt with them with powers of CO derived from AA1955.

The Field Squadrons in UKLF Engineer Regiments were similar; able to operate independently of RHQ when deployed, routinely on long roulement tours like a Belize or the Falklands. Quite how a CO in the UK with no command relationship in theatre could deal with an offence that occurred in theatre beats me.

These powers were not delegated; they arose directly from AA1955 (of which you presumably have no experience). Your statement about “senior subordinate commander” is entirely irrelevant as no there was no such thing in the Army.

I can think of several cases where OCs with power of command dealt dealt with tanks that only a CO could deal with and awarded punishments only available to a CO. Example; an OC who dealt with a SNCO for negligence regarding explosives handling and awarded a Severe Reprimand.

 

[Stonker]

Catterick, October 1983. Why, have you found my tooth?

No, but had it been a few months later I might have laughingly offered to help you look for it

 

[Stonker]

If they had your sleuthing skills on the job eh?

Were you responsible for The RP Section in your Bn?

Could you deal with a GBH with intent at a Summary Hearing in those days?

If I'd known that gag was gonna trample on RMP vanity, I woulda put on my ammo boots.


And crampons, probably

 

[Danny_Dravot]

I’m sorry but it was by no means unique for OCs of independent or detached subunits to hold powers of CO under AA 1955 (note @Danny_Dravot, I was clear in my previous post that this was pre-AFA). And when the OC was absent, command was handed over to the 2ic who assumed the powers IIRC unlimited by rank.

It was actually quite common for Engineer Squadron OCs to have powers of a CO. There were at least six Independent Squadrons where the OC reported directly to the Brigade (or equivalent) Commander and there was no RHQ in between. Those Squadrons never had an admin relationship with any of the major units it the Brigade. They were stand-alone, with their own UIN etc etc. As an example, OC 59 Independent Commando Squadron had no command or admin relationship with the other Army units in the pre-SDR 3 Commando Brigade. His soldiers did not go in front of CO Cdo Log Regt; the OC dealt with them with powers of CO derived from AA1955.

The Field Squadrons in UKLF Engineer Regiments were similar; able to operate independently of RHQ when deployed, routinely on long roulement tours like a Belize or the Falklands. Quite how a CO in the UK with no command relationship in theatre could deal with an offence that occurred in theatre beats me.

These powers were not delegated; they arose directly from AA1955 (of which you presumably have no experience). Your statement about “senior subordinate commander” is entirely irrelevant as no there was no such thing in the Army.

I can think of several cases where OCs with power of command dealt dealt with tanks that only a CO could deal with and awarded punishments only available to a CO. Example; an OC who dealt with a SNCO for negligence regarding explosives handling and awarded a Severe Reprimand.

I don't doubt anything about independent sub-units - I don't think I was ever questioning that. My point was about powers of summary hearing being delegated to OF2, and you'll note I caveated that I've never seen this post AFA06.

Likewise, I don't doubt powers of CO being delegated to nominated others, Regt 2IC etc, albeit in my experience, orderly rooms were invariably delayed until return of the CO - not least because the 2IC probably wasn't current with SH course, at least mine wasn't, had enough on their plates with fund manager, EC manager, JAMES, ATAU etc...

Ref senior subordinate commander...I conceded it was an RAF term I wasn't familiar with...

 

[bobthebuilder]

I don't doubt anything about independent sub-units - I don't think I was ever questioning that. My point was about powers of summary hearing being delegated to OF2, and you'll note I caveated that I've never seen this post AFA06.

Likewise, I don't doubt powers of CO being delegated to nominated others, Regt 2IC etc, albeit in my experience, orderly rooms were invariably delayed until return of the CO - not least because the 2IC probably wasn't current with SH course, at least mine wasn't, had enough on their plates with fund manager, EC manager, JAMES, ATAU etc...

Ref senior subordinate commander...I conceded it was an RAF term I wasn't familiar with...

My knowledge of AFA is cursory; it was introduced during my last posting, which couldn’t have been much further away from the discipline of British soldiers! I commanded in the last years of AA 1955 and never held orders (RE specialist unit).....

In my specific example (from the early 90s), I was de facto commanding the Squadron for ¼ of the tour as the OC was out of theatre for medical reasons and didn’t return to duty until we’ll after our post tour leave. This sort of situation was by no means unique.

There’s probably some mileage in your comment about holding proceedings back for the CO to return. I think there was an expectation back then to expedite hearings, whereas now, with all of the legal advice required under the SDA, there is no time pressure on the actual hearing.

As an example, in the training organisation, it was routine for regimental 2ics to hold COs orders when the CO was on leave. There was clear pressure to deal with disciplinary issues before a soldier was posted to his first unit.

Different times.

 

[Alamo]

I’m sorry but it was by no means unique for OCs of independent or detached subunits to hold powers of CO under AA 1955 (note @Danny_Dravot, I was clear in my previous post that this was pre-AFA). And when the OC was absent, command was handed over to the 2ic who assumed the powers IIRC unlimited by rank.

It was actually quite common for Engineer Squadron OCs to have powers of a CO. There were at least six Independent Squadrons where the OC reported directly to the Brigade (or equivalent) Commander and there was no RHQ in between. Those Squadrons never had an admin relationship with any of the major units it the Brigade. They were stand-alone, with their own UIN etc etc. As an example, OC 59 Independent Commando Squadron had no command or admin relationship with the other Army units in the pre-SDR 3 Commando Brigade. His soldiers did not go in front of CO Cdo Log Regt; the OC dealt with them with powers of CO derived from AA1955.

The Field Squadrons in UKLF Engineer Regiments were similar; able to operate independently of RHQ when deployed, routinely on long roulement tours like a Belize or the Falklands. Quite how a CO in the UK with no command relationship in theatre could deal with an offence that occurred in theatre beats me.

These powers were not delegated; they arose directly from AA1955 (of which you presumably have no experience). Your statement about “senior subordinate commander” is entirely irrelevant as no there was no such thing in the Army.

I can think of several cases where OCs with power of command dealt dealt with tanks that only a CO could deal with and awarded punishments only available to a CO. Example; an OC who dealt with a SNCO for negligence regarding explosives handling and awarded a Severe Reprimand.

I will defer to your greater knowledge of matters RE, which appear quite special.

 

[Stonker]

matters RE, which appear quite special.

Capbadge alumni include Gordon of Khartoum, and Mad, Married or Methodist as qualifiers.


You're probably best leaving them to it . . .

 

[bobthebuilder]

I will defer to your greater knowledge of matters RE, which appear quite special.

Not at all. We were by no means the only Corps that had independent minor units where a Major commanded and had de facto powers of CO. Nor were we the only arm that deployed sub-units on long tours. Infantry & Gunners both did the same.

 

[Sexton Blake]

It seems to be a myth. This looks like the closest:

Cyclist convicted - 'wanton and furious driving' | Birketts Solicitors

A cyclist has been found guilty of causing bodily harm by ‘wanton or furious driving’; Mr Alliston was also charged with manslaughter, but found not guilty. This is the first time a cyclist has been charged with an offence of this severity.

www.birketts.co.uk

Thread drift (albeit continuance of such).

LCpl mate of mine was 252'd in 1986 for cycling with no hands.

He was approaching the main entrance of camp on his super sexy racing bike, put both hands behind his back to fish out his MOD 90 (only 1 hand required but used both for balance). An RAF officer driving past in the other direction warned him for orders and in front of our Major OC at the time was kindly awarded £50.

Edited to add - No SLR's were involved, it wasn't on Ops, I do still remember the name of said JNCO and the utter bell end of the RAF officer was a Wg Cdr not a 2lt or RAF equivalent!

 

[Alamo]

Thread drift (albeit continuance of such).

LCpl mate of mine was 252'd in 1986 for cycling with no hands.

He was approaching the main entrance of camp on his super sexy racing bike, put both hands behind his back to fish out his MOD 90 (only 1 hand required but used both for balance). An RAF officer driving past in the other direction warned him for orders and in front of our Major OC at the time was kindly awarded £50.

Edited to add - No SLR's were involved, it wasn't on Ops, I do still remember the name of said JNCO and the utter bell end of the RAF officer was a Wg Cdr not a 2lt or RAF equivalent!

Yep, that’s exactly what happened, and it was purely for riding without hands. Riiight.

 

[Sexton Blake]

Yep, that’s exactly what happened, and it was purely for riding without hands. Riiight.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what happened.

 

[Danny_Dravot]

Thread drift (albeit continuance of such).

LCpl mate of mine was 252'd in 1986 for cycling with no hands.

He was approaching the main entrance of camp on his super sexy racing bike, put both hands behind his back to fish out his MOD 90 (only 1 hand required but used both for balance). An RAF officer driving past in the other direction warned him for orders and in front of our Major OC at the time was kindly awarded £50.

Edited to add - No SLR's were involved, it wasn't on Ops, I do still remember the name of said JNCO and the utter bell end of the RAF officer was a Wg Cdr not a 2lt or RAF equivalent!

I was ordered to dismount from my trusty mountain bike and walk by the RMP. It was in gutersloh between the mess and the kebab hut at the bottom end of the main drag. Mind you it was about 1am and I had had about 10 pints of Warsteiner.

 

[Portree Kid]

Except Service Law applies to anyone who steps onto one of Her Majesty's Grey War Canoes floating at quayside. 100% of the population, not 0.5%. Read that second link I posted.

After all, if you can be pedantic, so can I...

Does it really ?

AFA 06 is very specific to whom Service Law applies to:

• Persons subject to service law: regular and reserve forces
• Members of British overseas territories’ forces serving with UK forces
• Civilians subject to service discipline

So if I stepped aboard one of HM finest war canoes floating at a quayside as a Civilian visitor - Should the need arise, I could be detained and handed over to the Civil Police.

What will not happen, is the Navy's equivalent of OC's Orders - CO's Orders and a CM.

You are not being pendantic - You are highlighting your ignorance / stupidity. Take your pick.

 

[Alamo]

Yes, that is EXACTLY what happened.

OK. On the basis that it was 35 years ago, you weren’t there and it’s a second-hand dit from someone who’d been charged and had no incentive to justify events to his mate, I’m prepared to accept that’s EXACTLY what happened.

 

[Queensman]

Excuse me....... just dropping by to see if there's news of any more naughty generals in the thread?

It appears not.

 

[Sexton Blake]

OK. On the basis that it was 35 years ago, you weren’t there and it’s a second-hand dit from someone who’d been charged and had no incentive to justify events to his mate, I’m prepared to accept that’s EXACTLY what happened.

I was there. The JNCO in question was a mate. He lived in the block with me. This was hot snot at the time as it was very much 'news' within our Unit. Almost unbelievable at the time that he would get charged with such a thing; hence me remembering it now.

If I was to invent a dit for this thread I think I could come up with something a lot more juicy.

But glad you have now come aboard and are no longer making yourself look like an argumentative dick.

 

[Alamo]

I was there. The JNCO in question was a mate. He lived in the block with me. This was hot snot at the time as it was very much 'news' within our Unit. Almost unbelievable at the time that he would get charged with such a thing; hence me remembering it now.

If I was to invent a dit for this thread I think I could come up with something a lot more juicy.

But glad you have now come aboard and are no longer making yourself look like an argumentative dick.

If he was riding a bike how were you there? I’m not saying you invented the fact he was charged, I am saying that the grounds for the charge you/your mate are offering stretch the bounds of credulity somewhat. It’s analogous to ‘I was walking through the pub and this bloke punched me for absolutely no reason’, which is an oft offered defence of those who have got into a fight but don’t want to admit their part in it. Still, as you were there when it happened, I’m prepared to accept that’s EXACTLY what happened.

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

Says the guy who comes out with all the made up stories about how he was semi special forces on the Op Banner thread.

WTF are you on about?