Interesting court martial on the horizon, General in the dock.

[alfred_the_great]

That is not in dispute.



Those that come under the umbrella of AFA06

Now what is PC Plod going to charge me with, and what Law do I break ( as a Civilian ) if I buggered off from work for a week to play golf ?

Pass - but that’s not what you said, and you know it. AFA06 is UK Law, and persons subject to its provisions are breaking the law.

 

[wetsmonkey]

Did the RMP carry out serious crime investigations ?

Was that not the remit of the SIB ? ( Or whatever they are called to today - Or even exist today )

The SIB are a career stream of The RMP. In the same way that CID are a career stream of civilian police forces.

Serious crime requires multiple strands and disciplines to investigate, from dog handlers to detectives.

 

[Portree Kid]

He might charge you with any number of possible offences against the Coronavirus Act 2020 and associated legislation. If you were a civilian aiding, encouraging or assisting desertion, that might provoke liability under sections 45 or 46 of the Serious Crime Act 2007.

Look at that for strawmen

Did you not understand this part ?

Now what is PC Plod going to charge me with, and what Law do I break ( as a Civilian ) if I buggered off from work for a week to play golf ?

 

[Portree Kid]

Pass - but that’s not what you said, and you know it. AFA06 is UK Law, and persons subject to its provisions are breaking the law.

Jeebus - You are meant to be some high ranking Officer.

The clue is in the name Armed Forces Act - It applies to probably less than 1 million people.

I think that you will find that the AFA is enshrined in UK Law - Rather than being UK Law

 

[wetsmonkey]

What “more serious crime”? Genuinely?

You can get a non-contentious absolute offence done and dusted (including punishment) in less than a month, and the Police might take a couple of days of that. Even something more complicated - assault involving civilian victim etc - can be done within 4-5 weeks, and the actual police part of that is less than a week of actual work.

To my mind the Service Police exist for “the maintenance of good order and discipline”, and as such should be working at volume for lower level stuff. If it’s complex either pass it off to SIB*, or the more appropriate Home Office Force; they don’t exist to dress up like CT SFOs and act like they’re next office across from the Line of Duty.


*Service Police SIB in my direct interaction have always underwhelmed me though.

When I say serious crime, maybe I should have said, anything that can’t be dealt with by The CofC using normal military rank structure, insubordination, dress offences, failing to carry out a duty etc. A crime that requires a criminal investigation.

Why would HO forces investigate purely service crime, other than where it is a statutory requirement in UK, the main one being murder? They have enough work to do, the SP police are funded and remitted to do that, along with The MOD Police. I think the RNP, are a slight outlier in The SP, as their ship role is probably more akin to a Regimental Police NCO, in that they are responsible for unit discipline. Not something RMP would necessary get involved in.

 

[wetsmonkey]

Jeebus - You are meant to be some high ranking Officer.

The clue is in the name Armed Forces Act - It applies to probably less than 1 million people.

I think that you will find that the AFA is enshrined in UK Law - Rather than being UK Law

You always seem to turn so much into a personal and acrimonious argument.

 

[alfred_the_great]

When I say serious crime, maybe I should have said, anything that can’t be dealt with by The CofC using normal military rank structure, insubordination, dress offences, failing to carry out a duty etc. A crime that requires a criminal investigation.

Why would HO forces investigate purely service crime, other than where it is a statutory requirement in UK, the main one being murder? They have enough work to do, the SP police are funded and remitted to do that, along with The MOD Police. I think the RNP, are a slight outlier in The SP, as their ship role is probably more akin to a Regimental Police NCO, in that they are responsible for unit discipline. Not something RMP would necessary get involved in.

I suppose for me - having been at sea for nearly all my career - is that there is very little “purely service crime” that isn’t investigated by the RNP.

More fundamentally, I personally feel that if I’m going to take money off someone or deprive them of their liberty, I should expect each step of the case to be dealt with by those who do this professionally: police for the investigation, lawyers for the legal decisions and guidance. It’s not for me to decide to march in a guilty bastard just because I don’t like the look of him, and give him a punishment based on how pissed off I am that morning.

 

[Portree Kid]

You always seem to turn so much into a personal and acrimonious argument.

I'll refer you to my post at 1972

AWOL is an offence within the Military.

However it is not something that breaks UK Law

Reply

The Armed Forces Act 2006 is definitely UK Law, and breaking it breaks UK Law.

Repeated

AWOL is an offence under AFA06, which is UK Law,

The AFA 06 is Service Law - It is not UK Law.

Chapter 1 Application of Act

1. Persons subject to service law

So you might want to rethink who started the argument.

 

[wetsmonkey]

I'll refer you to my post at 1972



Reply



Repeated




The AFA 06 is Service Law - It is not UK Law.



So you might want to rethink who started the argument.

I was thinking more of this.

“Jeebus - You are meant to be some high ranking Officer”.

You seem to like making things personal and insulting.

 

[Portree Kid]

I was thinking more of this.

“Jeebus - You are meant to be some high ranking Officer”.

You seem to like making things personal and insulting.

It is rather insulting when an ( Alleged ) Senior Officer does not know the difference between Service Law and UK Law.

 

[Gravelbelly]

The AFA 06 is Service Law - It is not UK Law.

So if you get lifted by Dibble and found to be AWOL, your position is that they can't hold you until the RMP turn up, because not UK Law? Or perhaps this applies...

Armed Forces Act 2006

An Act to make provision with respect to the armed forces; and for connected purposes.

www.legislation.gov.uk

You also might want to ask yourself how "it's not law" applies when you read Schedule 15:

Armed Forces Act 2006

An Act to make provision with respect to the armed forces; and for connected purposes.

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

OC of an independent sub-unit?

Most independent sub-units are placed under the command of a unit for administrative purposes in my experience. I can't think of many where CO's powers are more or less permanently delegated but I guess it happens.

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

I suppose for me - having been at sea for nearly all my career - is that there is very little “purely service crime” that isn’t investigated by the RNP.

More fundamentally, I personally feel that if I’m going to take money off someone or deprive them of their liberty, I should expect each step of the case to be dealt with by those who do this professionally: police for the investigation, lawyers for the legal decisions and guidance. It’s not for me to decide to march in a guilty bastard just because I don’t like the look of him, and give him a punishment based on how pissed off I am that morning.

Quite right - and I never saw that happen in my career - ever.

 

[alfred_the_great]

Quite right - and I never saw that happen in my career - ever.

Absolutely used to happen in the RN. We were quite vociferous about AFA 06 and the harm it would do to Naval Discipine.

But then we used to issue 1/8th of a pint of rum on a daily basis to our sailors - within living memory.

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

Absolutely used to happen in the RN. We were quite vociferous about AFA 06 and the harm it would do to Naval Discipine.

But then we used to issue 1/8th of a pint of rum on a daily basis to our sailors - within living memory.

The two were doubtless closely connected!

 

[alfred_the_great]

The two were doubtless closely connected!

Well, yes!

 

[Portree Kid]

So if you get lifted by Dibble and found to be AWOL, your position is that they can't hold you until the RMP turn up, because not UK Law? Or perhaps this applies...

Armed Forces Act 2006

An Act to make provision with respect to the armed forces; and for connected purposes.

www.legislation.gov.uk

You also might want to ask yourself how "it's not law" applies when you read Schedule 15:

Armed Forces Act 2006

An Act to make provision with respect to the armed forces; and for connected purposes.

www.legislation.gov.uk

Could you point out where I adopted that position or even hinted at it ?

UK Law - Applicable to 100% of the UK population.

Service Law ( AFA 06 ) - Applicable to around 0.5% of the UK population.

These basics used to be covered on the duties of an NCO part of a JNCO's cadre.

Just like the Army Act 1955 covered persons subject to Military Law.

That big book was called Manual of Military Law, not Manual of UK Law.

 

[Caecilius]

You seem to like making things personal and insulting.

He also likes absurd levels of pedantry about irrelevant issues. This is one example but there are others out there, also about the precise definition of legal terms.

 

[wetsmonkey]

He also likes absurd levels of pedantry about irrelevant issues. This is one example but there are others out there, also about the precise definition of legal terms.

Yes.

 

[Tappet]

AA55 gave clear guidance, for the offence of Drunkenness, that SNCOs and Officers should not intervene in person for fear of aggravating a bad situation by creating opportunities for a befuddled troop to commit further, possibly more serious, offences.

Really? I've never seen that guidance in the Army Act 1955. What section?