Infantry phase 1. Not enough weekends

Discussion in 'Army Reserve' started by the_creature, May 12, 2010.

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  1. Just speaking to some of the recruits who went to catterick on the march intake. Now don't get me wrong they went through the same training as every infanteer before catterick but it turns out they were unprepared physically and mentally. 4 out of the 5 failed and the one that passed was a deffered pass. When I went to catterick I felt fully prepared and passed the course with no dramas and a good report. However the more recruits I speak to have jacked it in or not up to standard. More weekends should be added with more prep work for the course. Catterick is challenging and rewarding but when I did the course the 2 platoons started at 36-40 blokes and by the end we had 1 platoon of 24 and 1 of 20 and each had five or six fail even though they got through the 2 weeks. Surely this is a bad statistic.
     
  2. Same with our unit.
    We've had a good chunk failures at CIC within the past 12 months, and it basically turns out the guys are being let down by the standard of the RTC training/preparation.
    That may sound like a cop out. However, we had a couple of recruits pass their final weekend recently, which should be the tactical field skills and drills ex. They came back saying that in the field they had a camp fire and the staff ordered chips in for everybody.

    Good for morale, it might be. But it's the infanteer's bread and butter, and the most important element of training for preparing for the CIC - And the RTC are ballsing it up. The recruits will, and do, get a shock when they rock up for CIC.
    It's shocking that RTC does such things, and it makes me very, very glad I was trained by my own battalion on a consolidated course when I joined.

    Though, that doesn't mean I'm saying that our unit isn't partly to blame, either. They just get thrown through the system as and when they can, with no real affirmation of standards or check-ups on drills and skills.

    Pre-CIC weekends are a good soloution, but for some reason our unit hasn't put one on for nearly two years now.
     
  3. Im going to catterick in September, why are so many people not up to standard what do you mean by that? Are u saying people dont fully understand what is expected of them or what? or too many people trying to escape the recession and not really up to becoming a soldier? Im looking forward to training and eventually passing out. Im glad i have a few months to prepare physically tho i must admit.
     
  4. See above. Good points there. Rtc reminds me of some sort off attendance course. The reason for failers are not being fit and not used to the attitude and mental strenght expected of recruits at CIC. By that I mean recruits couldn't take or give the standard of an infantry soldier and put it
    in to practice at some of the most basic tasks. Lots fail on admin In the field and some just realise at some stage there not good enough and others try 100% however finish the course and told they are not up to the standard to pass out of cic. Every recruit who reads this You will hit the road running at catterick because intructors expect a lot from you that you might not
    of been taught. Get fit, find the strenght to push on even when
    your body says no, get your admin squared and shoot straight. I'm sick to death of weak minded individuals who have had the army spend money on them and get all the way to catterick and fail. Sort your lives out. Rant over.
     
  5. Just to bring some sanity (and facts) to this one:
    I can't legislate what happens at all the RTC's but I do know that it doesn't happen as you describe it down in the South. Currently weekends 7-9 are not actually field weekends but just sleep overs in the field to practice field admin (this is changing as we speak with a full exercise - Ex Halfway House moving from CIC to weekend 9)
    Basically:
    a) What is taught by the RTC's is 100% dictated by ITG
    b) What time is allocated to each subject is 100% dictated by ITG
    c) How and in what sequence it is taught by the RTC's is 100% dictated by ITG
    d) Who teaches it (ie required qualification) is 100% dictated by ITG
    e) How much "character building" that is allowed is 100% dictated by ITG
    And to cap it all ITG and AITI also inspect!!!!!!

    So whats the problem?
    Basically there is a recognised training gap of at least 2 weekends on TSC(INF) primarily due to the 2010 changes in shooting requirements. They tried to increase TSC(INF) to 5 weekends without producing the extra £'s in both the Units & RTC's - and as you might guess it got thrown out by the very big boys.....

    The real solution is to follow the regular army - all TA infantry should complete TSC(A) and then go to ATC(P) to complete TSC(B), at this point they have completed Phase 1 then they should go to ITC for their Phase 2 training ie revised CIC of pure infantry training. (And by the way it has been costed out and is cost neutral as it uses existing regular instructors and the enormous unused capacity at Pirbright)

    Everybody who actually knows the detail wants to go this way except for some very senior (and crusty) Infantry officers.
    PS I'm Infantry
     
  6. msr

    msr LE

    ATC(P)?
     
  7. Army Training Centre(Pirbright) possibly, thinking about all the rebranding
     
  8. Just out on interest. Is this for Southern units or all TA infantry ?
     
  9. Coming from passed experience I think 9 weekends and a 2 week course at pirbright followed by a pre cic weekend and then finally of to catterick is a good idea. I tansfered from the royal signals so I already did my 6 weekends and a 2 week course with regular instuctors, I then after transfer did a pre cic weekend complusary. I then volunteered to do an extra 3 pre cic to get my fitness at a comfortable strenght before catterick. Then did catterick. I had more experience then the day 1 week 1 crow and it payed off. Head officers should really consider a compulsory 2 week course at pirbright because it will seriously decrease drop out and failer rate. Moreover shooting will be at a very decent level, the regular instructor said more emphasis on shooting before cic would be better as a ta cic recruits shooting was at a low standard on arrival. Obviously you need a very pro TA employer for this to work.
     
  10. Am I the only one who saw the this coming when the TA stopped properly funding training (Eventually culminating in stopping pay for its trained soldiers). Having sat on both sides of the regular/reservist fence this irritates me greatly.

    What I find remarkable is that whilst the army was engaged on two fronts funding was allowed to be drastically reduced for training. As such the quality of the reservist soldier coming through was in steep decline and these boys were/are far more likely to deploy than their more superior trained, generally fitter and more able Cold War Warrior seniors ever were.

    The whole situation is dire and border line criminal as reservists who join regular units during pre tour training have an extremely difficult learning curve and time that should be spent on OPTAG training is being wasted as their regular units are forced to take some young in service lads back to basics.

    Just before leaving I had the displeasure of being on an exercise whereby I had to explain to "Trained soldiers" the principles of simple section level movement across country, fire and manouvre and most worryingly I failed 4 out of 8 lads I took for their WHT's for gross safety issues (One of whom was later passed as competent by another SAA instr went on to have a 5 round ND on a CQB range which was dealt with by words of advice and so in my opinion went unpunished and his training needs unchecked).

    New TA recruits are desperately in need of a lot more time, effort and cash being thrown at their training if they are expected to be ready for war after an average of 28 - 42 days training. This time needs to be used wisely and as such the training program and training facilities need to be well designed and executed.
     
  11. Campfire and chips in the field? :O

    More weekends are all well and good, but fact of the matter is we are already at a minimum of 9 Ph1 weekends for pre-CIC bods, plus unit weekends on top of that. Given a joining process prior to this that seems far longer than when I joined up, the timescale is getting stretched and stretched.

    I'm not sure what the answer is. Some of my blokes who've just gone through the system have said that Ph1 is largely powerpoint and V&S and such, and sect attacks and the like aren't even covered til the inf-specific weekends 7, 8, 9. The guys seem much happier with the content of 7,8,9 than with what goes before it. But our CIC dropouts were due to injury rather than ineptitude so we haven't felt the lack of such training - just that there appears to be a lot of extra stuff in there.

    Perhaps change the content of Ph1 rather than the length of it? If what I have been told about the makeup of weekends 1-5 is anything like the truth, it sounds a million miles away from my own experience in 2003 of 5 weekends based around phys, SAA, fieldwork; CIC and from applying to trained soldier in about 5 months. I feel sorry for the lads whose training pipeline seems so bloody protracted now. Also a switch back to units training their own at Ph1 rather than RTCs might give more of an incentive - units won't want 'their' blokes to fail at Ph2 as opposed to the mixed environment at an RTC, also the DS will be more mindful that these recruits could well be on ops with them in the not so distant future.

    Funny how things can go full circle eh ;)
     
  12. I think the key question is "What should be trained?" rather than "Which organisation should be doing it?". Under the current regime (inc OFSTED requirements) any Infantry unit that was allowed to train TSC(A) would have to follow exactly what ITG stipulates to RTCs plus also invest at a time of financial cut backs in an enourmous amount of Governance authorisation, paperwork, process, training, welfare personnel and inspections.
    Most RTC's having been working long and hard for 4 years to get this all in place to the level that an ATR has, what chance would the 14 Infantry Battalions have of doing it all individually in double quick time whilst also trying to deliver DIE?
    Basically TSC(A) is currently a) all about putting a military chip into civilians (similar to the early weeks of regular phase 1 training) and b) covering all those things that lay the Army open to civil legal actions, it is not about an Infantry beast!
     
  13. I'm in a Corps and the RTC training is not good enough for our needs.

    The fitness standards are extremely low.

    This means we have to work over a period of 6 months or a year to get them fit, despite being "trained soldiers"
     
  14. So Para Regt (R) (or the others who run their own TSC) are not allowed to do any extra phys for instance? Really?
     
  15. I don't believe anyone gets enough weekends.

    The Corps guys would benifit from completing WE's 6 to 9 as well. Many are going on to serve in Infantry Regts, as cooks, clerks, signallers (if the TA follows the new regular pattern of having Sigs Dets in Bn's) and medics and all soldiers should be at the same standard.

    The others, in Corps units, are pretty unprepared for the military side of life in the field and would still benifit from attending WE's 6-9, so far as I can tell.

    I think infantry attending ATC (P) prior to the ITC at Catterick is a great idea.

    I believe the best option though is to follow the lead of other nations with similar reserve set ups (USA, Canada and Australia) and have everyone do the same Regular phase I training. I can't see it happening anytime soon though.

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