infantry officers pistols

#2
ocdtelite said:
Was just wondering whats the deal with sidearms? Do officers still carry them? Or was that just in world war two and in films?
Swagger sticks only, any iron on the hip is simply to balance the sam browne, otherwise it would ride up.

Cannot think of where film makers got the idea from.
 
#3
Directive on TELIC was that all Majors and below must carry a rifle. I'll be honest, I never saw anyone (eve the GOC) without a rifle. A lot of us did carry pistols, mainly for liaison etc when you could leave the rifle in the wagon so as not to look too threatening, but still had something if the conference didn't go too well. Warrior crew carried pistols as they were more wieldy when in the turret, but still had rifles in the wagon.

I binned the pistol as it was a bit of a burden. The reality is, in Afghanistan or Iraq, if it goes wrong a rifle is the smallest thing you want.
 
#6
Long time ago IIRC I was given the impression that officers were not heavily armed so that they didn't get "involved" in a firefight but instead "managed" it.
... OK, pause for laughter ...
Things are now very different, of course. In my last operational scenario I was offered an SMG, but opted for an SLR instead. Bugger "management", I can shoot and I want to start while they're still a L .. o .. n .. g way away! :wink:
 
#7
TELIC is ops.
 
#8
blue_sophist said:
Long time ago IIRC I was given the impression that officers were not heavily armed so that they didn't get "involved" in a firefight but instead "managed" it.
... OK, pause for laughter ...
Things are now very different, of course. In my last operational scenario I was offered an SMG, but opted for an SLR instead. Bugger "management", I can shoot and I want to start while they're still a L .. o .. n .. g way away! :wink:
Hence the swagger stick (for directing troops) and the phrase "more of them than you could shake a stick at"
 
#10
Being RMP we take our pistols with us on ops as well as rifles. On Telic 1 my section was located initially with an RLC unit who's officers tried to take our pistols from us so that they could use them. I personally think all soldiers on ops should carry a pistol as well as a rifle. A. As a secondary weapon so that if the rifle fails you still have a chance B. There are situations when firing a rifle is impractical and dangerous, i.e in vehicles, buildings in Iraq etc, where 5.56 is too powerfull. I know this will never happen due to the associated costs but I am thinking of what should be the ideal situation.
 
#11
Mag_to_grid said:
Being RMP we take our pistols with us on ops as well as rifles. On Telic 1 my section was located initially with an RLC unit who's officers tried to take our pistols from us so that they could use them. I personally think all soldiers on ops should carry a pistol as well as a rifle. A. As a secondary weapon so that if the rifle fails you still have a chance B. There are situations when firing a rifle is impractical and dangerous, i.e in vehicles, buildings in Iraq etc, where 5.56 is too powerfull. I know this will never happen due to the associated costs but I am thinking of what should be the ideal situation.
are RMP still carryin brownings? or have u moved onto P226/8???
 
#12
Mag_to_grid said:
Being RMP we take our pistols with us on ops as well as rifles. On Telic 1 my section was located initially with an RLC unit who's officers tried to take our pistols from us so that they could use them. I personally think all soldiers on ops should carry a pistol as well as a rifle. A. As a secondary weapon so that if the rifle fails you still have a chance B. There are situations when firing a rifle is impractical and dangerous, i.e in vehicles, buildings in Iraq etc, where 5.56 is too powerfull. I know this will never happen due to the associated costs but I am thinking of what should be the ideal situation.
Following that line of reasoning, I really wanted to take my 4" .357 [i.e. punchy and reliable back-up] but was told "no way". Instead, my unit was "equipped" to about 35% of establishemnt. Good job the en didn't want to play any more.
 
#13
giorgio992 said:
Mag_to_grid said:
Being RMP we take our pistols with us on ops as well as rifles. On Telic 1 my section was located initially with an RLC unit who's officers tried to take our pistols from us so that they could use them. I personally think all soldiers on ops should carry a pistol as well as a rifle. A. As a secondary weapon so that if the rifle fails you still have a chance B. There are situations when firing a rifle is impractical and dangerous, i.e in vehicles, buildings in Iraq etc, where 5.56 is too powerfull. I know this will never happen due to the associated costs but I am thinking of what should be the ideal situation.
are RMP still carryin brownings? or have u moved onto P226/8???
Normal operations and duties in germany i.e GPD are still carrying the browning and apparrently will be until 2016 last I heard!
The close protection unit are using the P229 (Which is light years ahead of the browning) having moved on from the P228 about 4 years ago or so.
 
#14
FWIW, infantry officers at company level and below around here carry a rifle.

NTM
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
#15
BedIn said:
Directive on TELIC was that all Majors and below must carry a rifle. I'll be honest, I never saw anyone (eve the GOC) without a rifle. A lot of us did carry pistols, mainly for liaison etc when you could leave the rifle in the wagon so as not to look too threatening, but still had something if the conference didn't go too well. Warrior crew carried pistols as they were more wieldy when in the turret, but still had rifles in the wagon.

There was also a little known directive (according to our QM) that only the A2 was to be used in theatre for PR reasons. Since they were all allocated and there were no spares there was a team of us operating in and around Basra during T1 with one pistol and twenty rounds per man. On one occasion our firepower consisted of three pistols (unzeroed), one rifle (borrowed) and one hundred rounds between us and we were working on the wrong side of Bridge 2.

Happily, as we were all sporting types, we were able to take comfort in the fact that we were giving the other side a chance.
 
#16
FORMER_FYRDMAN said:
BedIn said:
Directive on TELIC was that all Majors and below must carry a rifle. I'll be honest, I never saw anyone (eve the GOC) without a rifle. A lot of us did carry pistols, mainly for liaison etc when you could leave the rifle in the wagon so as not to look too threatening, but still had something if the conference didn't go too well. Warrior crew carried pistols as they were more wieldy when in the turret, but still had rifles in the wagon.

There was also a little known directive (according to our QM) that only the A2 was to be used in theatre for PR reasons. Since they were all allocated and there were no spares there was a team of us operating in and around Basra during T1 with one pistol and twenty rounds per man. On one occasion our firepower consisted of three pistols (unzeroed), one rifle (borrowed) and one hundred rounds between us and we were working on the wrong side of Bridge 2.

Happily, as we were all sporting types, we were able to take comfort in the fact that we were giving the other side a chance.

You don't surprise me. In happier days someone would have been sacked for sending troops to war w/o ammunition. Seems those days are passed.
 
#17
I've just picked myself of the floor and managed to stop laughing! It's only a matter of time before a goverment minister reports that a key reason for not equiping troops for battle is to 'give the other chap a chance'. Excellent.

With regards to pistols - this thread reminded me of a talk we received at Warminster by Sidney Jarry, if I remember, he led a platoon from Normandy to Berlin and carried a pistol, grenades and an umbrella. He took the view that as an officer a) he couldn't shoot for toffee and b) his job was to direct the platoon battle and a rifle got in the way of map/bino's etc. I have a lot of time for that view point but personally I wouldn't have gone anywhere without a shooter.
 
#18
I seem to recall on TELIC 1 I was issued with a grand total of 20 rounds!
Only RHQ and A2 type officers carried pistols. Officers in the Squadrons carried Rifles.
 
#19
On Telic 1, I had a pistol and four rounds (one each taken off the medics by the QM - "no more 9mm in the sytem"....).

Luckily - as I later crossed the border at about H+1 - a soldier had a mild RTA injury, so i was able to scrounge his rifle and about twenty rounds...

Pistols are quite handy in the sort of wars we are fighting nowadays; a lot of the aggro being very close range or when you're scrunched up in a vehicle cab.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#20
That is so scary, I cant imagine not having more ammo than I can carry. I remember the SLR days 4 mags and the 5th with the CQMS but come a field firing you end up carrying more ammo than you could load in the mags during the day let alone when you needed it. I used 8 mags on scbc and felt that wasnt enough!
I wouldnt have been happy going to a proper war without at least 12 mags for the SLR and 4 bandoliers.
I recall spearhead being stood to for Aden in 86 and more ammo arrived than we could carry. Recce pln to secure the beach. We had to leave the Fox behind so 8 crews of 3 men all armed with SMGs I dont think so. I've never seen troops scrounging rifles from Clerks etc before!
Thank feck the royal yacht got there first!
 

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