INF Treaty Violation?

No surprises here. Why would China become signatory to a Treaty that limits Chinese capability? Nothing to do with us; only those treaty-breaking Russians and treaty-repudiating Americans. Trustworthy China was not involved.

'China rejected on Saturday German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s appeal to join a Cold War-era arms control treaty that the United States accuses Russia of breaching, saying it would place unfair limits on the Chinese military.'

China rebuffs Germany's call for U.S. missile deal with Russia | Reuters

China is a big part of the death of the INF treaty. Even their good buddies the Russians are moving more missiles to the Far East. Nothing like trust between comrades!
 
No surprises here. Why would China become signatory to a Treaty that limits Chinese capability? Nothing to do with us; only those treaty-breaking Russians and treaty-repudiating Americans. Trustworthy China was not involved.

'China rejected on Saturday German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s appeal to join a Cold War-era arms control treaty that the United States accuses Russia of breaching, saying it would place unfair limits on the Chinese military.'

China rebuffs Germany's call for U.S. missile deal with Russia | Reuters
As noted in the news story, the INF treaty is very closely predicated on the geography of Europe and on what was in the interests of the US and the Soviet Union.

To be able to include the Chinese in any arrangement, it would have to take air and sea based systems into account as well. China's military forces are primarily ground based, and a treaty that only restricts ground based forces and not air or sea based would inherently be tilted against China.
Retired Chinese General Yao Yunzhu told delegates a new arms control agreement would only work if it included sea- and air-launched missiles, as well as land, because most of China’s military technology was ground-based and the country would not want to put itself at a disadvantage.
That means the whole idea would need to be re-thought, and there is no sign that US or Russia are really interested in doing that at this time. It's Europe who want the INF treaty, but they have nothing to bring to the table to make it worth anyone's while to go along with them. The guy in the White House who is steering US policy on this, Bolton, is well known as being opposed to any arms control treaties at all.

There is already a treaty in which the major nuclear powers agreed to get rid of all of their own nuclear weapons provided the other signatories didn't start building any for themselves. There's no sign of that happening even decades later. When Merkel starts thinking of what is good for the world as a whole rather than just what is good for Germany and working to get that treaty implemented, then I'll start to take her concerns more seriously.
 
As noted in the news story, the INF treaty is very closely predicated on the geography of Europe and on what was in the interests of the US and the Soviet Union.

To be able to include the Chinese in any arrangement, it would have to take air and sea based systems into account as well. China's military forces are primarily ground based, and a treaty that only restricts ground based forces and not air or sea based would inherently be tilted against China.


That means the whole idea would need to be re-thought, and there is no sign that US or Russia are really interested in doing that at this time. It's Europe who want the INF treaty, but they have nothing to bring to the table to make it worth anyone's while to go along with them. The guy in the White House who is steering US policy on this, Bolton, is well known as being opposed to any arms control treaties at all.

There is already a treaty in which the major nuclear powers agreed to get rid of all of their own nuclear weapons provided the other signatories didn't start building any for themselves. There's no sign of that happening even decades later. When Merkel starts thinking of what is good for the world as a whole rather than just what is good for Germany and working to get that treaty implemented, then I'll start to take her concerns more seriously.
Western Europe continues to remove any influence it once had over the United Sates.
Perhaps it is time for Merkel to go?
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
There is good news and there is bad news.
Good news is that some of NATO members start to understand logic of the Cold War. Bad news is that they lost understanding of Anglo-logic (aka double-thinking).

"D’où cette hypothèse que Pompeo, selon les propres évaluations de ses services qui n’ont que la seule référence de l’exceptionnalité et de l’éternelle supériorité de la puissance US, suit comme narrative, correspondant d’ailleurs fort bien à son caractère et à sa culture (?), la raillerie courante des Russes et de leurs capacités, qui est l’une des deux faces du jugement américaniste habituellement complètement contradictoire sur la Russie. (L’autre face de la contradiction étant la diabolisation de la Russie et de sa puissance maléfique, avec effectivement la contradiction complète comme prime courante de la pathologie de ces dirigeants américanistes.)"

"Hence the hypothesis that Pompeo, according to his own evaluations of his services, which have only the reference of the exceptionality and the eternal superiority of the US power, follows as narrative, corresponding moreover very well to his character and his culture (?), the common mockery of Russians and their capabilities, which is one of two sides of the usually completely contradictory American judgment on Russia. (The other side of the contradiction is the demonization of Russia and its evil power, with Indeed the complete contradiction as the common prime of the pathology of these American leaders.)"

Le Zircon de Poutine ? “Fanfaronnade”, dit Pompeo
 

Sadurian

LE
Book Reviewer
Well the German economy and their Anti American sentiment will dictate their security choices.
I don't think you should be reading too much into Germany's desire to cut defence ties with USA. A European defence force capable of looking after itself has been on the planning table pretty much since 1945, and Germany simply inherited the mantle of pro-European champion from France as it regained power.

What you see as anti-US is probably in large part just down to a desire to cut the apron strings. Trump himself wasn't exactly helpful in instilling confidence in the USA's commitment to NATO or Europe, so you can hardly blame NATO's European members if they choose to become independent of the US for their defence.
 
Russia has announced that they will suspend their participation in the INF treaty "until the U.S. ends its violations of the treaty or until it terminates."
Russia halts participation in nuclear arms treaty, stoking fears of Cold War-era crisis | CBC News
In a decree, Putin suspended Russia's obligations under the terms of the 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces treaty and said it will continue to do so "until the U.S. ends its violations of the treaty or until it terminates."
The US had previously announced their intention to withdraw from the INF, so this response by Russia not not unexpected.
The U.S. gave notice of its intention to withdraw from the INF a month ago, setting the stage for it to terminate in six months unless Moscow returns to compliance. Russia has denied any breaches, and accused the U.S. of violating the pact.
The UN has said that they hope the US and Russia will both return to supporting the treaty, as it formed an important part of international arms control and stability.
At the United Nations, spokesman Stephane Dujarric told reporters that Secretary General Antonio Guterres holds a strong hope that Moscow and Washington could resolve their differences over the treaty in the coming months.
"The INF is a very important part of the international arms control architecture," Dujarric said.
"It has contributed tangibly to the maintenance of peace and stability, notably in Europe."
 
I don't think you should be reading too much into Germany's desire to cut defence ties with USA. A European defence force capable of looking after itself has been on the planning table pretty much since 1945, and Germany simply inherited the mantle of pro-European champion from France as it regained power.

What you see as anti-US is probably in large part just down to a desire to cut the apron strings. Trump himself wasn't exactly helpful in instilling confidence in the USA's commitment to NATO or Europe, so you can hardly blame NATO's European members if they choose to become independent of the US for their defence.
No their reporter who was making up pure bullshit about Americans, was eye opening enough. The German people were all to willing to believe made up propaganda and use it to form their views of my country. Nobody questioned him in Deutschland.

Commitment works both ways.
Europe seems to forget that.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
No their reporter who was making up pure bullshit about Americans, was eye opening enough. The German people were all to willing to believe made up propaganda and use it to form their views of my country. Nobody questioned him in Deutschland.

Commitment works both ways.
Europe seems to forget that.
"Money talks, BS walks" as you say. Russia and China are much more useful trading parthners to them, you know.
 
Second order effects, on a Soviet 'successor state'.

'Ukraine has got rid of some of the limitations on the range of missiles and plans to develop high-precision missile weapons. This was stated by the President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko during a meeting of the National Development Council, Interfax-Ukraine reports. "We are no longer bound by any limitations either on the range of our missiles or on their power - let the enemy know about it too. We need high-precision missiles and we no longer intend to repeat the mistakes of the Budapest Memorandum," he said.'

Ukraine needs high-precision missile weapons, - Poroshenko
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
Septics, even before official end of INF-treaty, started development of INF-missiles.

What is even more important - they did without consultations with their European and Asiatic "allies".
 
Septics, even before official end of INF-treaty, started development of INF-missiles.

What is even more important - they did without consultations with their European and Asiatic "allies".
As opposed to 9M729 when the Treaty was in force. Not really rocket science (actually it is a bit) is it? To put what’s used on ships on a vehicle.
They wanna test it at August.
In
 
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