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INEOS Grenadier 4X4

If UK MOD does not buy either this or the new JLR Defender, what will likely replace the existing LR fleet as a GP 4x4 taxi? Or will they just turn the existing LR fleet into Trigger's Brooms and keep replacing bits, rather than cast & replace?
To . . . "replace the existing LR fleet as a GP 4x4 taxi", ploughing up-an-down the motorways, driving between deployed field locations, I would respectfully suggest/ask, WHY would you spend more, and for what added capabilities, then is available from ?! ;) . . . .

duster_2015_lifestyle_04.jpg


dacia-duster-prestige-sce-115-4x4-top-0.jpg


dacia-duster-beyond-the-limits-2.jpg



With - when really required - for more arduous, combat situations, the models with which we are already familiar . . .

FOXHOUND-LPPV.jpg

FOXHOUND LPPV is at the cutting edge of protected patrol vehicle technology, providing unprecedented levels of blast protection for its size and weight. Featuring blast survivability close to that of a Mastiff – and just a little bigger than the Snatch Land Rover it replaces – the Foxhound is ideally suited for manoeuvring around the narrow backstreets of towns and villages.
Weighing in at six tones, it has a top speed of 70mph and can do 0-50mph in just 19 seconds.
Four-wheel steering makes it extra agile, with a 40ft turning circle.


HUSKY-TSV-military-vehicle.jpg

HUSKY TSV is a highly mobile, protected support vehicle, providing commanders with an armoured, mobile and flexible load carrying vehicle, there are currently three Husky variants 1: Command Post 2: Utility and 3: Ambulance.
The Husky is a variant of the American MXT-MVA (Military Extreme Truck – Military Version) modified to the UK MoD’s requirements, it will carry out resupply (food, water and ammunition) and support where heavier vehicles such as Mastiff and Wolfhound can’t get to.
Capable of carrying a crew of 4, commander and driver plus 2, it is thought that Husky will eventually replace Land Rover, Pinzgauer and the RB44.

 
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To . . . "replace the existing LR fleet as a GP 4x4 taxi", ploughing up-an-down the motorways, driving between deployed field locations, I would respectfully suggest/ask, WHY would you spend more, and for what added capabilities, then is available from ?! ;) . . . .

View attachment 502107

View attachment 502108

View attachment 502109


With - when really required - for more arduous, combat situations, the models with which we are already familiar . . .

View attachment 502110
FOXHOUND LPPV is at the cutting edge of protected patrol vehicle technology, providing unprecedented levels of blast protection for its size and weight. Featuring blast survivability close to that of a Mastiff – and just a little bigger than the Snatch Land Rover it replaces – the Foxhound is ideally suited for manoeuvring around the narrow backstreets of towns and villages.
Weighing in at six tones, it has a top speed of 70mph and can do 0-50mph in just 19 seconds.
Four-wheel steering makes it extra agile, with a 40ft turning circle.


View attachment 502111
HUSKY TSV is a highly mobile, protected support vehicle, providing commanders with an armoured, mobile and flexible load carrying vehicle, there are currently three Husky variants 1: Command Post 2: Utility and 3: Ambulance.
The Husky is a variant of the American MXT-MVA (Military Extreme Truck – Military Version) modified to the UK MoD’s requirements, it will carry out resupply (food, water and ammunition) and support where heavier vehicles such as Mastiff and Wolfhound can’t get to.
Capable of carrying a crew of 4, commander and driver plus 2, it is thought that Husky will eventually replace Land Rover, Pinzgauer and the RB44.


Of the two above the foxhound is quite cosy inside with a BV for brews, quite different to the husky which is ideal for Support Company with GMG HMG and that nice Javelin for blooding black hats

The foxhound tent is also cosy and dark enough fir snorers


Back to replacements for landies though

Sad to say the Frogs have something ideal from Renault
 
You appear to be arguing against a point i havent made.

I simply stated that theres no reason the Ineos cannot perform better both in safety and driveability than the old Defender and be comparable to other similar vehicles.

I haven't disputed your point about sales to industry or that it wont get 5 stars.

but on the subject of The mining industry - how are they judging the 5 stars - because The whole pedestrian vs 4x4 issue costs points so is that factored in or do they strip out those results.
My point was that the Grenadier’s safety levels can’t be very much better than the old Defender because the design philosophy is the same. It’s wider to accommodate side impact protection, but that’s about it. It will presumably have all of the electronic aids etc as they’re Tier 1 items, but it won’t come near the physical requirements because it’s structure can’t achieve them.

There’s no way Ineos have the engineering depth to design a structure that will be strong enough, nor can they have the manufacturing capability to make it. FCA haven’t done it with the Jeep, Toyota have been open that they are struggling.

The ANCAP system does not tests utility vehicles as cars; the rating does not include pedestrian safety or child safety; they are rated as working vehicles. There’s a strong argument that they shouldn’t be, given that Australian most popular car is the Hilux and the cities are full of twincab utes being used as family cars. But there are five twincabs on the market with 5* ratings, one of which is Chinese. If Ineos can’t make a vehicle that competes on safety at that level, they haven’t a hope.
 
My point was that the Grenadier’s safety levels can’t be very much better than the old Defender because the design philosophy is the same. It’s wider to accommodate side impact protection, but that’s about it. It will presumably have all of the electronic aids etc as they’re Tier 1 items, but it won’t come near the physical requirements because it’s structure can’t achieve them.

I disqgree - whilst i agree its by design it wont match a modern monocoque design - Toyota and Nissan and have made improvements so ladder chassis have sacraficial / weak points to act as crumple zones - theres side impact protection and much improved rollover protection.
Whilst I agree that sans roll cage Little would improve Defender in that regard - theres no reason a clean sheet design cant. - Indeed the body on ladder Disco 1 - 3 was no wose than any car of its era.

Should perhaps make it clear that what im arguing is it can be much better than the old Defender - not that it can be as good as the new one .
We perhaps have different views on what counts as significant improvement and of course how low the old Defenders bar is.
For me A pillars that will support the roof in the event of a roll over, airbags and a SIPS that amounts to more than whats in your pocket = big improvements.

* Although I admit that SIPS is i feel less important on the old Defender as most side impacts are under you rather than in the door .

There’s no way Ineos have the engineering depth to design a structure that will be strong enough, nor can they have the manufacturing capability to make it. FCA haven’t done it with the Jeep, Toyota have been open that they are struggling.

Again i cant agree here - because as a new design to be sold in Europe it has to be much improved and compare favourably at least to Toyota offerings

Landrover and Jeep are/were both acceptable on the grounds they were an existing model and all new variants upgrades.

The ANCAP system does not tests utility vehicles as cars; the rating does not include pedestrian safety or child safety; they are rated as working vehicles. There’s a strong argument that they shouldn’t be, given that Australian most popular car is the Hilux and the cities are full of twincab utes being used as family cars.

Euro NCAP does rate them on pedestrians and Child safety - part of why 4 star not 5 star - but we both agree no (current) ladder chassis design competes with an all new car design in terms of occupant safety.


But there are five twincabs on the market with 5* ratings, one of which is Chinese. If Ineos can’t make a vehicle that competes on safety at that level, they haven’t a hope.

Completely agree although with the caveat that your 5 stars for trucks may well be a 4 for Europe given the different testing regimes
 
I disqgree - whilst i agree its by design it wont match a modern monocoque design - Toyota and Nissan and have made improvements so ladder chassis have sacraficial / weak points to act as crumple zones - theres side impact protection and much improved rollover protection.
Whilst I agree that sans roll cage Little would improve Defender in that regard - theres no reason a clean sheet design cant. - Indeed the body on ladder Disco 1 - 3 was no wose than any car of its era.

Should perhaps make it clear that what im arguing is it can be much better than the old Defender - not that it can be as good as the new one .
We perhaps have different views on what counts as significant improvement and of course how low the old Defenders bar is.
For me A pillars that will support the roof in the event of a roll over, airbags and a SIPS that amounts to more than whats in your pocket = big improvements.

* Although I admit that SIPS is i feel less important on the old Defender as most side impacts are under you rather than in the door .



Again i cant agree here - because as a new design to be sold in Europe it has to be much improved and compare favourably at least to Toyota offerings

Landrover and Jeep are/were both acceptable on the grounds they were an existing model and all new variants upgrades.



Euro NCAP does rate them on pedestrians and Child safety - part of why 4 star not 5 star - but we both agree no (current) ladder chassis design competes with an all new car design in terms of occupant safety.




Completely agree although with the caveat that your 5 stars for trucks may well be a 4 for Europe given the different testing regimes
Toyota know that the entire Landcruiser range is in last chance saloon over primary safety. They’re sweating old designs until they can’t; whether they will ever be replaced is not yet certain. Nissan are not replacing the Patrol and Mitsubishi are exiting the market. The next generation of utes will be a unibody of some kind, noting that a unibody and monocoque are not the same thing. The Tesla Cybertruck will be a huge dislocator in this market.

The other issue for me with Ineos is that they have identified a global market of 25000. How are they going to support the things?
 
Toyota know that the entire Landcruiser range is in last chance saloon over primary safety. They’re sweating old designs until they can’t; whether they will ever be replaced is not yet certain. Nissan are not replacing the Patrol and Mitsubishi are exiting the market. The next generation of utes will be a unibody of some kind, noting that a unibody and monocoque are not the same thing. The Tesla Cybertruck will be a huge dislocator in this market.

It may come to pass that its acknowledged and accepted certain functions are going to require a ladder chassis see all the Defender/ Toyota based Honeywagons , recovery trucks - hi abs - cable movers etc - which will keep the Li Lux et al around - however i would expect them to return firmly into the commercial bracket again with associated leg to keep them there.
 
It may come to pass that its acknowledged and accepted certain functions are going to require a ladder chassis see all the Defender/ Toyota based Honeywagons , recovery trucks - hi abs - cable movers etc - which will keep the Li Lux et al around - however i would expect them to return firmly into the commercial bracket again with associated leg to keep them there.
I think you’re right. With the proviso that any business with a zero harm policy is going to buy vehicles which make driving risks ALARP.

In way, I think you can draw a parallel with the way that UK have moved away from TUMs to PMVs and the way that US forces are ditching HMMV. It’s no longer acceptable to put your people into vehicles that don’t offer the highest of safety.
 
For completeness, also posted on the New Land-rover DEFENDER thread.

[DRIFT]

AS MITSUBISHI HAVE JUST ANNOUNCED THEY WILL WITHDRAW FROM THE UK/EU/EUROPEAN MARKET, WHY IS WHATCAR? BOTHERING?! . . . TO HELP MITSUBISHI SELL THE REMAINING STOCK MAYBE?

Published by: WHATCAR? magazine, on 05 September 2020.

Mitsubishi L200 long-term test review.

The L200 has a reputation for being a great working vehicle, but can it also be a good alternative to a large SUV for those seeking practicality and off-road prowess?

We're living with one to find out:
+ The car Mitsubishi L200 Barbarian X Double Cab Run by Max Edleston, junior photographer.
+ Why it’s here To see if a pick-up truck can be as comfortable and practical for daily life as a large SUV.
+ Needs to Offer all the space that a What Car? photographer might need, be great for long-distance trips and off-road driving, and function as a mobile office.

Mileage 489
List price £32,525
Price as tested £41,317
Test economy 32.4mpg
Official economy 36.2mpg
Options: Adventurer III commercial hardtop (£1446)
Electric Blue metallic paint (£455)
tailgate locking kit (£310) bed liner (£210)
bed mat (£134)

3 September 2020 – First impressions

When driving on the roads of Cheshire, near my family home, the chances are you’ll see one of three types of car: an SUV with enough chrome to blind an oncoming driver, a high-end sports car blasting its way round a corner, or a mile-munching saloon with a German badge on its bonnet.

A less common sight is a pick-up truck. But among Cheshire’s large farming community, the Mitsubishi L200 is one of the most sought-after models.

It’s a car that has always been present on the fringes of my life, too, because I’ve long had a keen interest in pick-up trucks and my uncle (a farmer) had a bright blue L200 when I was growing up. It amazed me back then to think how large it was inside, and how easily it could fit myself, my brother, my cousin and all of the supplies needed to run a busy farm without batting an eyelid.

Now, as you may have heard before from What Car? photographers, ours is a job where no two days are the same. One morning we could be in a dusty quarry, and the next standing up to our knees in water, all to get the pictures you see in the magazine and on the website. The point is, I need a car that can handle any terrain and that's large enough to swallow all of my gear. What’s sitting on my driveway now, then, is a new L200.

More specifically, it’s an L200 in Barbarian X trim and with an automatic gearbox. And under the bonnet is a 148bhp 2.3-litre diesel engine, which should have more than enough grunt to haul this pick-up around, even when it’s fully laden with my gear. While Barbarian X trim comes with plenty of goodies, not least a heated steering wheel and a 360deg parking camera, I have nonetheless added a few options.

The most obvious one is the £1446 hard-top cover for the load bay, which means I can keep my camera kit secure and away from prying eyes when it’s not being used. It’s early days, but the reversing camera has already proved itself to be far more than just a luxury, because parking the L200 at my local supermarket can be a challenge to say the least. Unlike the best large SUVs, pick-up trucks don’t do anything to hide their size.

The leather-trimmed seats have shown themselves to be comfortable even on long journeys, too, so I can arrive at shoot locations feeling fresh and ready to work, rather than needing 20 minutes to sort out my back and legs before getting started. Another boon is the L200’s infotainment system, which, like many modern setups, comes with Apple CarPlay smartphone mirroring.

It grants access to handy apps like Waze, allowing me to get from A to B with the minimum of fuss thanks to real-time traffic updates. True, the system has frozen up on me a couple of times recently – seemingly always when I’m in a busy town and relying on the maps to direct me. However, this might be down to the cable I'm using, so I’ll change that before blaming the truck.

During my time with the L200, I want to push it both on and off road to see how it handles different conditions and explore the different drive modes it offers. By that, I mean the various off-roading aids, including low-ratio gears and locking differentials, all designed to get me where I need to be. No matter what, I expect to get it muddy. Above all, though, I want to know whether the L200 can be just as comfortable and refined as a large SUV, while also offering that extra dose of practicality that comes with a pick-up truck, and all without breaking the bank in the process.

l200lt.jpg



[/DRIFT]
 
For completeness, also posted on the New Land-rover DEFENDER thread.

[DRIFT]

AS MITSUBISHI HAVE JUST ANNOUNCED THEY WILL WITHDRAW FROM THE UK/EU/EUROPEAN MARKET, WHY IS WHATCAR? BOTHERING?! . . . TO HELP MITSUBISHI SELL THE REMAINING STOCK MAYBE?

Published by: WHATCAR? magazine, on 05 September 2020.

Mitsubishi L200 long-term test review.

The L200 has a reputation for being a great working vehicle, but can it also be a good alternative to a large SUV for those seeking practicality and off-road prowess?

We're living with one to find out:
+ The car Mitsubishi L200 Barbarian X Double Cab Run by Max Edleston, junior photographer.
+ Why it’s here To see if a pick-up truck can be as comfortable and practical for daily life as a large SUV.
+ Needs to Offer all the space that a What Car? photographer might need, be great for long-distance trips and off-road driving, and function as a mobile office.

Mileage 489
List price £32,525
Price as tested £41,317
Test economy 32.4mpg
Official economy 36.2mpg
Options: Adventurer III commercial hardtop (£1446)
Electric Blue metallic paint (£455)
tailgate locking kit (£310) bed liner (£210)
bed mat (£134)

3 September 2020 – First impressions

When driving on the roads of Cheshire, near my family home, the chances are you’ll see one of three types of car: an SUV with enough chrome to blind an oncoming driver, a high-end sports car blasting its way round a corner, or a mile-munching saloon with a German badge on its bonnet.

A less common sight is a pick-up truck. But among Cheshire’s large farming community, the Mitsubishi L200 is one of the most sought-after models.

It’s a car that has always been present on the fringes of my life, too, because I’ve long had a keen interest in pick-up trucks and my uncle (a farmer) had a bright blue L200 when I was growing up. It amazed me back then to think how large it was inside, and how easily it could fit myself, my brother, my cousin and all of the supplies needed to run a busy farm without batting an eyelid.

Now, as you may have heard before from What Car? photographers, ours is a job where no two days are the same. One morning we could be in a dusty quarry, and the next standing up to our knees in water, all to get the pictures you see in the magazine and on the website. The point is, I need a car that can handle any terrain and that's large enough to swallow all of my gear. What’s sitting on my driveway now, then, is a new L200.

More specifically, it’s an L200 in Barbarian X trim and with an automatic gearbox. And under the bonnet is a 148bhp 2.3-litre diesel engine, which should have more than enough grunt to haul this pick-up around, even when it’s fully laden with my gear. While Barbarian X trim comes with plenty of goodies, not least a heated steering wheel and a 360deg parking camera, I have nonetheless added a few options.

The most obvious one is the £1446 hard-top cover for the load bay, which means I can keep my camera kit secure and away from prying eyes when it’s not being used. It’s early days, but the reversing camera has already proved itself to be far more than just a luxury, because parking the L200 at my local supermarket can be a challenge to say the least. Unlike the best large SUVs, pick-up trucks don’t do anything to hide their size.

The leather-trimmed seats have shown themselves to be comfortable even on long journeys, too, so I can arrive at shoot locations feeling fresh and ready to work, rather than needing 20 minutes to sort out my back and legs before getting started. Another boon is the L200’s infotainment system, which, like many modern setups, comes with Apple CarPlay smartphone mirroring.

It grants access to handy apps like Waze, allowing me to get from A to B with the minimum of fuss thanks to real-time traffic updates. True, the system has frozen up on me a couple of times recently – seemingly always when I’m in a busy town and relying on the maps to direct me. However, this might be down to the cable I'm using, so I’ll change that before blaming the truck.

During my time with the L200, I want to push it both on and off road to see how it handles different conditions and explore the different drive modes it offers. By that, I mean the various off-roading aids, including low-ratio gears and locking differentials, all designed to get me where I need to be. No matter what, I expect to get it muddy. Above all, though, I want to know whether the L200 can be just as comfortable and refined as a large SUV, while also offering that extra dose of practicality that comes with a pick-up truck, and all without breaking the bank in the process.

View attachment 502638


[/DRIFT]
The L200 is a generation behind the best in class. It’s also not one that score 5*s for safety. Their sales in Aus have crashed.
 
Not (yet) included on the AUTOCAR magazine’s on-line version (to COPY and PASTE), so I have typed-in the following . . . because you’re worth it !!

Also posted on the New DEFENDER thread.


Published by: AUTOCAR magazine (page 15), issue dated 16 September 2020.

Jimny back as a van . . .

THE SUZUKI JIMNY has returned to the UK market – but only as a commercial vehicle. The small 4x4 was removed from sale as a passenger car due to the adverse effect it had on the brand’s fleet average CO2 emissions, but by homologating it as a van it is subject to a less stringent EU target CO2 figure.

Mechanically, it’s unchanged, but the rear two seats have been removed for a flat, 863-litre load bay with a central partition to stop cargo (and dogs !! ), moving into the front. The Jimny also retains the same safety systems as before. Prices have yet to be revealed, but previously the model started at £15,370.

1600343053176.png
 
Not (yet) included on the AUTOCAR magazine’s on-line version (to COPY and PASTE), so I have typed-in the following . . . because you’re worth it !!

Also posted on the New DEFENDER thread.


Published by: AUTOCAR magazine (page 15), issue dated 16 September 2020.

Jimny back as a van . . .

THE SUZUKI JIMNY has returned to the UK market – but only as a commercial vehicle. The small 4x4 was removed from sale as a passenger car due to the adverse effect it had on the brand’s fleet average CO2 emissions, but by homologating it as a van it is subject to a less stringent EU target CO2 figure.

Mechanically, it’s unchanged, but the rear two seats have been removed for a flat, 863-litre load bay with a central partition to stop cargo (and dogs !! ), moving into the front. The Jimny also retains the same safety systems as before. Prices have yet to be revealed, but previously the model started at £15,370.

View attachment 505165
It was in the online magazine a couple of weeks ago. Suzuki Jimny returns as two-seat commercial 4x4 | Autocar

I was going to post it and make the comment that this illustrates the pitfalls of making new off-road vehicles in a dated manner. The Jimny also only managed a 3* NCAP. https://bit.ly/2RE6PZg.

It’s also absolutely awful to drive on a motorway.
 
And its a legend off road…
You don't buy a Jimny as a frigging motorway cruiser
So no-one ever drives on the motorway to get to where they are going off road?

Legend off road? My arrse. Might be a legend in your local quarry, I’d be thinking twice about going a long way off-road.
 

philc

LE
For those that want a glance at the Grenadier, they are being used as support vehicles for Inios during this years Giro De Italia. They look neat updated Defenders.
 
Also posted on the New Defender thread . . .

Seemingly ONLY speculation, but it would confirm what has already been said on these threads.


+ + + + + + + + + + + +

Published by: Jacob Oliva, motor1.com, on 08 October 2020.

The iconic nameplate is allegedly entering its final model year.

Toyota patrons and SUV fans, drop what you're doing because we've got news for you. Reportedly, the Japanese automaker is killing off the Land Cruiser soon in the U.S. This old SUV will apparently join countless other models that aren't making it past the new couple of model year.

However, take this with a healthy dash of salt or put the whole canister even, as nothing has been confirmed at this point.

The news came from Motor Authority, which cited a now-deleted post on IH8MUD.com – a website and forum for everything Land Cruiser. According to the post, Toyota will discontinue the Land Cruiser nameplate after the 2021 model year, while the Lexus LX will live on but with a turbo V6 instead of the current 5.7-liter V8.

Motor Authority also cited a dealer source confirming the rumor, who said that "there's no illusion it's coming back and it's completely dead for the moment." The source wishes to remain anonymous for obvious reasons.

The same source also told the publication that for the 2021 model year, the Land Cruiser Heritage Edition will return with a third row. This special LC was introduced at the Chicago Auto Show in 2019 for the 2020 model year, with a price tag that hovers around the $80,000 mark.

While the rumor is completely unconfirmed by the automaker at the time of this writing, it isn't quite unfounded based on the Land Cruiser's age. Of note, the current J200 generation has been around since 2007, with no concrete reports of a successor. It made do with only numerous facelifts to keep the styling fresh and attractive for the SUV-hungry market.

We'll know more if this report holds true in the months or years to come but for what it's worth, we sure do hope we got this one wrong for the iconic nameplate's sake.

Source: Motor Authority.

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