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INEOS Grenadier 4X4

The Grenadier will be commercially viable, inasmuch as the company is hard-headed.
When production of the Defender ceased, 20,000 pa were being sold in Africa. Add to that 15-20 years worth of spares per vehicle, and that one market is at least worth not, as JLR decided, abandonment. And the market was abandoned because the JLR Defender is a less readily adaptable, much more expensive, vehicle.
One continent buying 20,000 pa (were that to be achieved) may/will not be viable - more orders will be needed. There's a host of Defender - based military vehicles. It will be very interesting to see a military Grenadier, when it comes. Any large military order might allow Ineos to achieve economies of scale, which would then further assist sales. Fingers crossed for Ineos - hopefully the potential adaptability of the Grenadier will be a winning factor.

ineos have clearly got an eye on the G Wagon paramilitary and military market.
The G wagon is A very good wagon, but eye wateringly expensive.

And whats that? The Grenadier is basically a G wagon underpinnings and the same ladder chassis with a body on top package?

its almost like they did their homework.
 
This seems to be an expensive replica of a vehicle that was discontinued because it offered a poor driving experience with worse safety features. An automotive Aga.

except it’s quite a bit wider than the defender which will transform the cab ergo dynamics.
 
NCAP is a rather odd metric.

see my older CRV, 3*, but my wife’s newer Jazz, 5*

They compare like for like ie supermini , family hatch , SUV

Which means that the 5 star Twingo may not be better than the 3 star Mondeo because should the 2 meet the Mondeo is a much heavier car.

Hence the push to score SUVs against small cars to further the evil 4x4 mantra.
 
This seems to be an expensive replica of a vehicle that was discontinued because it offered a poor driving experience with worse safety features. An automotive Aga.

Yay and nay

Safety -
Airbags - SIPS are all available and can be fitted - It was to expensive to rework the Defender - but the Wrangler has been.
Crumple zones - they can (and probably have) design in points in the chassis to provide some deformation - note the early gen Navarras as an example of when weak points go wrong.
Roll over - its got to meet current standards vs the Defenders roof or no roof the difference is gravel rash.

Driveability - its wider partly to accommodate SIPS partly interior - so no more elbow out the window.

Id expect Driver experience to be akin to a Shogun or Hilux.

Handling - the Defenders Bane - or not - To an extent thats going to be down to wheel size (and ground clearance)

A lot of the handling issue is down to how tall the Defender sits - much taller as standard than its counterparts
As such ive known people test drive a Defender, Shogun /Pajero / Toyota and decide on the Pajero because its far better handling.
They then procede to lift the suspension for the ground clearance. Well done youve now knackered the handling and may as well have gone with the defender which your Pajero is now after much work sitting at the same height as.


I see no reason it cant be a reasonable drive - like the Ranger Hi Lux etc excepting that they cannot compete in terms of ride and handling with a car
 
The Grenadier will be commercially viable, inasmuch as the company is hard-headed.
When production of the Defender ceased, 20,000 pa were being sold in Africa.
Strange that. Total global Defender sales in the final full year of production were 23,127. In the previous five years, they never hit 18000. Sales of Defenders in Africa we unlikely to be 2000 units, 200 would have been closer.
 
Strange that. Total global Defender sales in the final full year of production were 23,127. In the previous five years, they never hit 18000. Sales of Defenders in Africa we unlikely to be 2000 units, 200 would have been closer.
I will have to check the source - it was either in Autocar or the Telegraph. I'm not at home atm so will check once I am and report back.
I may have mis-read the article, based on your figures.
 
except it’s quite a bit wider than the defender which will transform the cab ergo dynamics.
The width of the Defender is a big plus for greenlaning etc.. - we have a few places we need to get that a wider vehicle would have issues and reduce it's effectiveness for us.
 
Yay and nay

Safety -
Airbags - SIPS are all available and can be fitted - It was to expensive to rework the Defender - but the Wrangler has been.
Crumple zones - they can (and probably have) design in points in the chassis to provide some deformation - note the early gen Navarras as an example of when weak points go wrong.
The new Wrangler scored a massive one star on its NCAP test. It’s low score had bugger all to do with it’s secondary safety functions and everything to do with the fact that is falls apart in a crash. The headline ratings for utility vehicles like the Hilux and Navara are much higher, until you understand that the test criteria for utes are far laxer.

There’s no excuse.
 
The new Wrangler scored a massive one star on its NCAP test. It’s low score had bugger all to do with it’s secondary safety functions and everything to do with the fact that is falls apart in a crash. The headline ratings for utility vehicles like the Hilux and Navara are much higher, until you understand that the test criteria for utes are far laxer.

There’s no excuse.

The US classes 4x4s as trucks and as you say circumvents the rules - on safety and fuel.


The Euro NCAP doesn't allow them to be tested differently** - hence the Defenders death -
Toyota Hi Lux s tested to the same standards as a car and gets 4 stars - (It loses a lot of points on kiddie seats)



**Admittedly it didnt test them at all before 2008 as they were commercial - but so many are now sold as lifestyle they are tested as cars.

Edit to add - I mentioned the Wrangler as it had similar aged origins to the Defender and had supposedly been upgraded to suit modern standards.
It would seem its met the this must be fitted requirements but thats not improved matters.
 
Last edited:

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
But one of the key reasons why Landrover went for a monocoque is to achieve much higher primary safety levels than a separate chassis can achieve.

This is a real issue for big corporates like the big mining companies. Toyota re-engineered the 70 series Landcruiser because the Australian mines no longer allow vehicles that don’t have a five star rating. But, as you point out, safety standards are getting more stringent; the 70 Series can only comply for a couple more years. If there is a next generation Landcruiser, it will be a monocoque.
Won't matter a jot if it has a separate chassis or is monocoque if the side pillars fold like tissue paper when it rolls.
 
The US classes 4x4s as trucks and as you say circumvents the rules - on safety and fuel.


The Euro NCAP doesn't allow them to be tested differently** - hence the Defenders death -
Toyota Hi Lux s tested to the same standards as a car and gets 4 stars - (It loses a lot of points on kiddie seats)



**Admittedly it didnt test them at all before 2008 as they were commercial - but so many are now sold as lifestyle they are tested as cars.
When JLR killed the old Defender, they had near zero corporate sales. Why? Because companies that buy lots of 4x4s usually have zero-harm health and safety policies. The issue of safe vehicles is a huge one for the Australian mining industry, which buys more 4x4s a year than Landrover ever produced old Defenders. They are now buying heavily modified and very expensive bespoke vehicles and have got rid of the old Landcruiser 90 troopies.

The military vehicle market has moved the same way; forget the longitudinal wooden seats in the back of a Bedford MK. Modern vehicles have properly integrated seats.

The Grenadier has **** all chance of corporate or military sales
 
When JLR killed the old Defender, they had near zero corporate sales. Why? Because companies that buy lots of 4x4s usually have zero-harm health and safety policies. The issue of safe vehicles is a huge one for the Australian mining industry, which buys more 4x4s a year than Landrover ever produced old Defenders. They are now buying heavily modified and very expensive bespoke vehicles and have got rid of the old Landcruiser 90 troopies.

The military vehicle market has moved the same way; forget the longitudinal wooden seats in the back of a Bedford MK. Modern vehicles have properly integrated seats.

The Grenadier has **** all chance of corporate or military sales

You appear to be arguing against a point i havent made.

I simply stated that theres no reason the Ineos cannot perform better both in safety and driveability than the old Defender and be comparable to other similar vehicles.

I haven't disputed your point about sales to industry or that it wont get 5 stars.

but on the subject of The mining industry - how are they judging the 5 stars - because The whole pedestrian vs 4x4 issue costs points so is that factored in or do they strip out those results.
 
The width of the Defender is a big plus for greenlaning etc.. - we have a few places we need to get that a wider vehicle would have issues and reduce it's effectiveness for us.

greenlaning is a niche hobby, not a manufacturers prime sales target.
 
If UK MOD does not buy either this or the new JLR Defender, what will likely replace the existing LR fleet as a GP 4x4 taxi? Or will they just turn the existing LR fleet into Trigger's Brooms and keep replacing bits, rather than cast & replace?
 
If UK MOD does not buy either this or the new JLR Defender, what will likely replace the existing LR fleet as a GP 4x4 taxi? Or will they just turn the existing LR fleet into Trigger's Brooms and keep replacing bits, rather than cast & replace?

Ford Ranger or something along those lines

A pick up variant of the Ineos if UK built may have stood a chance on those grounds - buts unlikely to compete in price due to limited orders - There really isnt a reason it cant compete with the current crop of 4x4 utilities in performance terms
 
If UK MOD does not buy either this or the new JLR Defender, what will likely replace the existing LR fleet as a GP 4x4 taxi? Or will they just turn the existing LR fleet into Trigger's Brooms and keep replacing bits, rather than cast & replace?

Dutch replaced theirs with Amoroks
 

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