Indoor Range sizes

#1
I've been asked to look at developing a site to incorporate an indoor range for the relocation of a local rifle club.
I was wondering if there was a standard range size or does it depend on what you are shooting either full bore or rim fire.
What would you want/need in a world class range if you wanted to train for the Olympics?
 
#3
Ideally, you'd want 50m. If that's not possible, then 25m will do. A firing point width of 1.5m is the "Olympic" standard; plenty of ranges shrink that slightly, so that they can pack in more firing points. 1m between firers is too small IMHO.

Our range has a two-level firing point; the bulk of UK indoor 0.22 target stuff is done in the prone position, so that lets you double the number of firing points. The downside is that any standing/kneeling firing has to be done from a different firing point (we do prone at 25yds, and I have to do my standing/kneeling from the floor of the range at 20yds).

If you've got pony club / pentathlon types, they fire air pistols at 10m. Some ranges solve this by having the 10m target box swing down from the ceiling when in use, so that you can have prone, standing 0.22, and standing airgun on the firing point at the same time.

There's a range in Wigan that's excellent; their old range was a hostage strip for an Asda car park, so they did a trade - Asda built them a truly outstanding facility. 50m on the top floor, clubroom + 10m airgun range + armoury + 25m range downstairs.

When you're doing the measuring, remember to allow plenty of room at the back for movement. From the back wall to the front of the firing point should be a minimum of 3m (2m of it being occupied by your prone firer), and more is better. It's not just movement, the range officer needs to be able to see what's going on.
 
#4
Lights are a good idea. As is a telephone. And heating; don't forget heating.

What about a gallery for spectators? And a rest/tea room (running water, power). Storage, for targetry etc.

First aid. Fire extinguishers. Emergency exits.

Parking; people need to park their cars.

Furniture; chairs for waiting.

White boards and notice boards; for posting scores and notices, respectively.
 
#5
Have a word with the NRA/NSRA at Bisley. They have a wealth of knowledge and could provide a grant from NRA funds.They also give information as to applying to the "Lottery Fund" for a grant, dont laugh its been done before with success.Dont forget disabled access and use.
 
#6
I don't have a great deal of time for the National Bodies but they will help you with this. Alternatively, if you want an independent consultant then pm me. I've got a number of designs drawn up that have been done for various people.
 
#7
Really cool trick: Go to any bowling alley. The background makes it look as if they're all different (background, lighting, etc.). Make a shooting range that does the same thing! Almost like real life - except for the maniacs in black body everything., of course.
 
#8
We have a 100 m 6-Lane indoor full bore rifle range (8 m wide, I think) next to a 25 m fullbore pistol range (also 8 m wide).

If you can build even 50 m fullbore rifle, local shooters will come in their droves. Compare it to a couple of weekends a year at Bisley/on a military range and you'll know why.

The ranges here are basically built as a rectangular concrete box with a big pile of sand at the business end. Zero danger area, zero problem. Some have a sand floor in front of the firing points, others are concrete all the way.
 
#9
EX_STAB said:
I don't have a great deal of time for the National Bodies but they will help you with this.
Yes, opinions of NGBs is irrelevant in this case as they now certify civvie ranges and issue RSCs since the MoD decided they didn't have time to do it for civvies.
You will have to deal with them whether you like it or not. And as inept as they may be at PR and politics, that's because they really know what they're doing with the actual sports side of it.
There is a joint NRA/NSRA range design booklet which is quite a lot of cut and paste from the MoD range design manual (don't fix it if it ain't broke!).

Is it for .22 and/or centre-fire? If CF, then then rifle CF, or pistol CF (i.e. Gallery rifle and LBP/LBR)? Either way, for indoor, ideally talk to NSRA rather than NRA, as the NSRA oversee a lot more indoor ranges than the NRA. They work together pretty closely on range certification anyway.

The man to talk to is Director of Shooting Ali Aitken - a lovely ex Army chap who knows everything you will ever need about range design (or will once he's finished handing over from retiring DoS Geoff Doe).

National .22 rifle disciplines are shot at 20 & 25yds indoors, and 50m and 100yds outdoors, Olympic rifle disciplines are shot at 50m outdoor.
Air is at 10m.
A 50m indoor range with brackets to hang targets at 25yds, 20yds & 10m would be ideal, allowing positional and technique training for the outdoor 50m events in a windless environment, as well as accommodating all the national disciplines.
Most .22 indoor ranges are 25yd, but increasing numbers are pushing to 50m where space allows and they have an opportunity to do a rebuild.
As one poster mentioned, Wigan got a superb facility out of Asda, although the running costs are astronomical, as it's a big building, fully equipped with a lift for disabled shooters to get to the 50m range upstairs, etc. They seem to be managing, partly because the GB squad does indoor 50m indoor training over winter. Ensuring the running costs are sustainable is obviously one of the most important aspects.

Depending on the size of the club you'll want at least 6 firing points. Usual firing point allowance is 1m-1.5m, but for a club it's worth being generous so coaches have space to slot in next to their student and set up a scope, etc without having to sit on top of the shooter next door!
They can always pack people in tight for competitions.
If the firing point is totally open, you can give people whatever spacing you like. If you have baffles, you're locked into set firing points.
A compromise is to have baffles every 2.5m. That means you can give a coach and student oddles of space for training (one pair per "bay"), but still pack in 2 shooters per bay for comps, and give them 1.25m each.

Allow plenty of space at the back for coaches, ROs, etc. 3m will do, 4-5m is preferable. Much easier to train and coach when you've got ample space and aren't falling over each other.

As I say, there is obviously an important distinction is whether fullbore means fullbore pistol calibres (i.e. for Gallery Rifle), or everything upto and including 7.62mm so people can set up rifles with their wind zeros and experiment with new gadgets and toys in a windless environment. For pistol calibres, you don't need more than 50m, as all the GR events are at distances less than that. If it's for FB rifle, then you really want 100yds, although set up properly, you can safely manage with 25yds (e.g. the Zero range at Bisley)

Electronics for the Olympic disciplines are nice if the budget stretches, but otherwise they'll maybe want to specify electric winding boxes (e.g. Gehrmann boxes). Much cheaper to buy, and easy to maintain in house as they are electrical rather than electronic - just a motor and a forward/reverse switch! Ongoing running costs and ease of maintenance must be considered as much as initial cost, especially in a club environment.

Backstop depends again on desired disciplines, so a bit more information would help. For .22 you can use a vertical steel plate with Linatex curtains to catch splashback, and for .22 and some pistol calibres you can go up a stage and use an angled steel plate to deflect rounds down into a sand bed.
For most CF however you need to go to a full sand backstop, so if that's the case, be sure to allow eneough space at the business end of the range for a couple of metres of sand, otherwise the shooter-target distance will come up a bit short!
If space is an issue and they only want .22, the linatex curtain is a very compact solution. You can pack steel plates, an air space, linatex and then the targets into a package extending less than 30cm from the wall.
 
#11
Hemmers said:
EX_STAB said:
I don't have a great deal of time for the National Bodies but they will help you with this.
Yes, opinions of NGBs is irrelevant in this case as they now certify civvie ranges and issue RSCs since the MoD decided they didn't have time to do it for civvies.
You will have to deal with them whether you like it or not. And as inept as they may be at PR and politics, that's because they really know what they're doing with the actual sports side of it.
There is a joint NRA/NSRA range design booklet which is quite a lot of cut and paste from the MoD range design manual (don't fix it if it ain't broke!).<snip>
The NGB's do issue safety certificates. They have no standing in law and there is no requirement to have one though much as they might like that to be the case. You DO NOT need an NRA/NSRA Safety certificate to operate your range.
Anybody can write a range safety certificate, it's meaningless as there is no legislation or British Standard that it relates to. I can write you a certificate that says "I certify that this range is safe." You can write your own. No such requirement in law.

The NRA plagiarisation of JSP403 is practically useless. That is one very broken document if ever I saw one. It is inconsistent, arbitrary, unscientific and less than helpful.

As to whether the NGBs "really do know what they are doing" I would venture that if they did , shooting in Britain wouldn't be in the parlous state it is. They are totally useless.

Remind me where the 2012 shooting events are being held? :roll:
 
#12
Thanks to everyone who has replied, the range will fit into the area that I have been given, although first thing this morning the spec has been changed by 90 degrees to allow car parking.
Does anyone know of any companies that specialise in building ranges?
 
#13
Spacehopper383 said:
Thanks to everyone who has replied, the range will fit into the area that I have been given, although first thing this morning the spec has been changed by 90 degrees to allow car parking.
Does anyone know of any companies that specialise in building ranges?
I have already offered. :)

Most of it is just standard building techniques. You may need some engineering input for your backstop depending on the design. It's the design that you need to get squared away then employ a suitable architect and builder.

If you're interested then PM me.
 
#14
Cheers Ex-Stab, keep an eye out for a PM in the next week or so.
At the moment we are just working on fitting a range, an indoor bowling green, clubhouse/bar as well as a doctors surgury and some flats into the plot of land approx 6,200m². We also have to contend with a large dia sewer running through the site with a 5m exclusion zone each side of it. My idea was that the shooting range was located below ground with the indoor bowling green on top.
 
#15
If you can fit in a 100m range and make it fit for centrefire rifle you will be everyone's friend!

I'll keep an eye out for your pm. :)
 
#16
All I know is that the indoor mortar range is meant to be fecking huge. I never got to see it though because I walked round & round camp trying to find the Q with the keys but no one ever had them.
 
#17
EX_STAB said:
Hemmers said:
EX_STAB said:
I don't have a great deal of time for the National Bodies but they will help you with this.
Yes, opinions of NGBs is irrelevant in this case as they now certify civvie ranges and issue RSCs since the MoD decided they didn't have time to do it for civvies.
You will have to deal with them whether you like it or not. And as inept as they may be at PR and politics, that's because they really know what they're doing with the actual sports side of it.
There is a joint NRA/NSRA range design booklet which is quite a lot of cut and paste from the MoD range design manual (don't fix it if it ain't broke!).<snip>
The NGB's do issue safety certificates. They have no standing in law and there is no requirement to have one though much as they might like that to be the case. You DO NOT need an NRA/NSRA Safety certificate to operate your range.
Anybody can write a range safety certificate, it's meaningless as there is no legislation or British Standard that it relates to. I can write you a certificate that says "I certify that this range is safe." You can write your own. No such requirement in law.
Every FAC held for target shooting has a condition which states you may only shoot on ranges with a Range Safety Certificate. It used to say MoD RSC, but new grants/renewals ones are now being modified to open them up to new ranges not certified by the MoD.
Although not de jure, it is generally accepted as de facto that this means an RSC from a body who actually know what they're doing, as opposed to some Joe-Public individual glancing at the range and making a shiny certificate on MS Publisher.
What it comes down to is that if there is an accident, you need the full risk assessment and design process, etc, etc to demonstrate that the club is not at fault and has followed the advice and bets practice as laid down by the NGBs (again, regardless of personal opinions, the NRA and NSRA are the primary NGBs for target shooting. That is how a court will view it because they generally don't know any better).

In any case, the club is going to want it signed off by a nationally recognised body who will hold their hand through court in the event that the worst happens. Self-certifying just because you can is a fools game.
after all, it never hurts to have a second opinion from a body who do this for a living and see lots of different ranges in lots of different circumstances. Especially as you're correct in that the range design books are not all that good.

As to whether the NGBs "really do know what they are doing" I would venture that if they did , shooting in Britain wouldn't be in the parlous state it is. They are totally useless.

Remind me where the 2012 shooting events are being held? :roll:
As I said, their ineptitude at PR does not mean they know nothing about shooting.
If you want the NRA of GB to be the NRA of America, you will be waiting a very long time. They are two fundamentally different organisations.
- The NRA of America is a political lobbying organisation.
- The NRA of GB is a sports association that runs competitions and helps it's members conduct their sport in a safe and fair manner.

Pretty much everyone who slates the NRA of GB has utterly failed to grasp this concept and crucial distinction. The fact that they share a name is irrelevant. They are not the same organisation nor do they share the same purpose.

We have now fallen into a good equilibirum, where everyone basically focuses PR to BASC (a political lobbying organisation by design), who having spent squillions of quid on a shiny press centre are in the best position to deal with PR and politics on behalf of shooters.

The NRA of GB does what it does well. That it is not all things to all men does not diminish it's speciality knowledge.
Condemning them for not being PR specialists is retarded because that's not what their purpose or mission is, although they could have done better in the past in many respects.

As for 2012, that's a totally fallacious argument. When Tessa Jowell has been on record stating that "there is abslutely no way I'm letting the shooting go to Bisley" (OWTTE), then you're up the swanney to start with.
The whole thing has been a farce - LOCOG and the auditors visiting Bisley without actually bothering to talk to NSRA/NRA whilst they were there, dodgy accounting, back-slapping and corruption of the highest order. LOCOG is rotten to the core with self-serving individuals. What hope did anyone have? The decision was not based on finance or logic.
 
#18
Hemmers said:
EX_STAB said:
Hemmers said:
EX_STAB said:
I don't have a great deal of time for the National Bodies but they will help you with this.
Yes, opinions of NGBs is irrelevant in this case as they now certify civvie ranges and issue RSCs since the MoD decided they didn't have time to do it for civvies.
You will have to deal with them whether you like it or not. And as inept as they may be at PR and politics, that's because they really know what they're doing with the actual sports side of it.
There is a joint NRA/NSRA range design booklet which is quite a lot of cut and paste from the MoD range design manual (don't fix it if it ain't broke!).<snip>
The NGB's do issue safety certificates. They have no standing in law and there is no requirement to have one though much as they might like that to be the case. You DO NOT need an NRA/NSRA Safety certificate to operate your range.
Anybody can write a range safety certificate, it's meaningless as there is no legislation or British Standard that it relates to. I can write you a certificate that says "I certify that this range is safe." You can write your own. No such requirement in law.
Every FAC held for target shooting has a condition which states you may only shoot on ranges with a Range Safety Certificate. No it doesn't, read the words. It used to say MoD RSC, but new grants/renewals ones are now being modified to open them up to new ranges not certified by the MoD.
Although not de jure, it is generally accepted as de facto The NRA's legal adviser has told me personally that this is not the case.. that this means an RSC from a body who actually know what they're doing, as opposed to some Joe-Public individual glancing at the range and making a shiny certificate on MS Publisher.
What it comes down to is that if there is an accident, you need the full risk assessment and design process, etc, etc to demonstrate that the club is not at fault and has followed the advice and bets practice as laid down by the NGBs (again, regardless of personal opinions, the NRA and NSRA are the primary NGBs for target shooting. That is how a court will view it because they generally don't know any better).

In any case, the club is going to want it signed off by a nationally recognised body who will hold their hand through court in the event that the worst happens. Self-certifying just because you can is a fools game.
after all, it never hurts to have a second opinion from a body who do this for a living and see lots of different ranges in lots of different circumstances. Especially as you're correct in that the range design books are not all that good.

As to whether the NGBs "really do know what they are doing" I would venture that if they did , shooting in Britain wouldn't be in the parlous state it is. They are totally useless.

Remind me where the 2012 shooting events are being held? :roll:
As I said, their ineptitude at PR does not mean they know nothing about shooting.
If you want the NRA of GB to be the NRA of America, you will be waiting a very long time. They are two fundamentally different organisations.
- The NRA of America is a political lobbying organisation.
- The NRA of GB is a sports association that runs competitions and helps it's members conduct their sport in a safe and fair manner.

Pretty much everyone who slates the NRA of GB has utterly failed to grasp this concept and crucial distinction. The fact that they share a name is irrelevant. They are not the same organisation nor do they share the same purpose.

We have now fallen into a good equilibirum, where everyone basically focuses PR to BASC (a political lobbying organisation by design), who having spent squillions of quid on a shiny press centre are in the best position to deal with PR and politics on behalf of shooters.

The NRA of GB does what it does well. That it is not all things to all men does not diminish it's speciality knowledge.
Condemning them for not being PR specialists is retarded because that's not what their purpose or mission is, although they could have done better in the past in many respects.

As for 2012, that's a totally fallacious argument. When Tessa Jowell has been on record stating that "there is abslutely no way I'm letting the shooting go to Bisley" (OWTTE), then you're up the swanney to start with.
The whole thing has been a farce - LOCOG and the auditors visiting Bisley without actually bothering to talk to NSRA/NRA whilst they were there, dodgy accounting, back-slapping and corruption of the highest order. LOCOG is rotten to the core with self-serving individuals. What hope did anyone have? The decision was not based on finance or logic.


I'll leave teh 2012 discussion to another time as I'm going out but note the comments in blue above.

If you read the conditions, they state "The (firearms) shall be used for target shooting, and only whilst a member of club XYZ, on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm, and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim"

No mention of safety certificates, national governing bodies and so on. You need to convince your insurer and clearly you have a duty of care to range users and the wider public to make sure it is safe for the calibres and disciplines that you use it for but no certificates are required.
 
#19
Hi all

I am joining this thread a bit late in the day but I have a question for all. We are presently going through a grants process and part of this is for a refurb of our indoor 25m .22 range (6 lanes) and 10m .177 range (8 lanes). It would be great if we could get the lighting updated. Is there anyone out there can advise on the best lighting systems out there for these sorts of ranges.

Thanks
 
#20
Just a quick thought (in complete ignorance) but I can imagine that careful consideration of the needs of the disabled is a must. For two reasons: firstly if you ever want to apply for external funding (Sport England etc.) it will be a given and secondly we tend to pay lip service to the needs of the disabled yet we now see more and more of our fellows returning from Afghanistan sadly in that category.
 

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