Indirect fire mission

Discussion in 'The Training Wing' started by hogstable, Sep 10, 2011.

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  1. Just been given a bit of a fast ball of a lesson for Tuesday. No Q man to ask so over to you chaps.

    Got the format from Herrick Aide Memore

    Hello this is ....... Is this to zero or would there be a specific Mor / Arty call sign to call?

    Loc of Tgt

    Bearing in Mils ................. take it that this is the mag brg?

    What do you want done?


    For how long long would it be for 2 mins etc for neutralise?

    Over to you

    Cheers chaps
  2. Like any conversation, the exact permutations are almost endless, but something like the following would work as an example. (A10 is the all arms observer and G11 is the FOO)

    A10: Hello G11, this is A10, Fire Mission Over.
    G11: G11 Fire Mission Over

    A10: A10, Fire Mission, Grid 123456, Direction 1800 Mils Magnetic, infantry dug in on corner of woodline, neutralise now for 2 minutes
    G11: G11, Roger, Grid 123456, Direction 1800 Mils Magnetic, infantry dug in on corner of woodline, neutralise now for 2 minutes, wait out.

    {The format for the initial call for fire should be: "Fire Mission", Location, Direction, Description of Target, What you want to be done to it, When and for How Long. Instead of "Now" you could say "in 10 mins", "at 1430hrs" or "At my Command"}

    G11: A10, G11, Target Not Identified, Send Corrections.
    A10: Roger, Target not identified , send corrections.

    {If the FOO is able to identify the target (now or at any time during the fire mission) he will report: "Target Identified", take over the fire mission and let you know when it is complete}

    G11: A10, G11 Shot 45 over
    A10: A10, Shot 45

    {The number after the word Shot indicates the projectile time of flight in seconds, indicating when the observer should expect to see rounds landing. NB there may be a significant delay between the call for fire and the guns reporting ready and then firing, during this time the FOO may periodically check that it is still clear to fire and that the fire mission is still required. In the COE, the requirement to get clearance to fire will also add a delay and may require that the FOO gets eyes on and takes on the fire mission}

    G11: A10, G11, Splash over
    A10: Splash

    {Splash indicates that the rounds should be landing in the target area now}

    A10: G11, A10, Left 300 over
    G11: Roger, Left 300

    G11: A10, G11, Shot over
    A10: Shot

    {Normally and inexperienced observer should adjust for line first and then distance, bracketing the target in both axis, if you are a ninja (or it is a particularly easy adjustment) you could send corrections in both axis at once, but this is not normally recommended}

    A10: G11, A10, Drop 100
    G11: Roger, Drop 100

    G11: A10, G11, Shot over
    A10: Roger, Shot

    A10: G11, A10, Rounds on Target, Fire for Effect
    G11: G11, roger, rounds on target, fire for effect

    {Ask for Fire for Effect when the rounds are landing where you want them (normally within 50m of the intended target), this will be the start of the "Neutralise for 2 minutes", etc.}

    G11: A10, G11, Rounds complete
    A10: A11, Roger, rounds complete, end of mission, record as target.

    {Give "End of Mission" only when you are satisfied that you have achieved the desired effect on the target, if you want another 3 mins of fire you say: "Roger, rounds complete, repeat for 3, over" which the FOO will report back to you.}

    NB, you can stop the fire at any time during the fire mission by telling the FOO to either "Cease-Loading" (meaning the guns will fire whatever they have up the barrel but nothing else) or "Check-Fire" (meaning that the guns will immediately stop firing). If you demand check-fire, you must remember that there will still be rounds in the air. Also if the guns are left with ammunition up the barrel, this will normally need to be fired into a safe target area.
  3. Is it wise to teach a lesson on something you don't know that well?
  4. Should there not be a "oh **** **** ****" in there at some point?
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Cheers BC, mega reply there mate and much appreciated.

    The reason I'm giving it Chocolate is because I've been asked to, we are a TA Engineer Sqn so no one is really qualified to be fair, I think that its not the most appropriate topic and not what we really need but when does that come into it!!!

    You would hope that fire missions are given by those who know it thoroughly and I assume that they are.
  6. The_Duke

    The_Duke LE Moderator

    In a general war scenario, fire can be called in by anyone with the means to do so (ie a way of communicating with the higher formation HQ.

    In the COE, the chance of someone allowing indirect fire based on a target indication from anyone other than a trained observer (MST, Mortar fire controller, recce elements etc) is highly unlikely.

    If I were you, I would fight tooth and nail to get this lesson replaced with something more relevant, or until you can get someone trained in the subject to teach it. How would you answer any questions posed by the soldiers?
  7. While I tend to agree that in Afghanistan, you are unlikely to get all arms observers adjusting fires (generally because they cannot provide mensurated grids), I also believe that the ability to do so is vital (we will not be in Afghanistan for ever). Given that the OP is probably teaching a lesson which will contribute to HFT rather than MST, it is entirely appropriate to be teaching troops to call for fire. There are the whole "should we teach E-CAS as well" and "what about battlespace management" discussions as well, but probably not within the scope of this thread.
  8. I was taught Target Grid 33 years ago by a ex 41cdo Korean war vet.I paid attention and took it all in(can still remember it now)--Thought it might come in handy one day.(it didn't)

    Always remember his example of description of target------"Wogs in the wadi"----very appropriate for those now serving.
  9. hogstable, I realise that you have asked the same question in the Gunner section. Just note that most of the answers you have got there relate to the conversation between the FOO and the gun line CP, which is conducted on the gun net and so is something you won't get involved with (eg asking for 3 guns or 2 launchers, etc). To clarify, what I gave you is what you need, as a non-gunner, to speak to your FOO on your net in order to get indirect fire where you want it. The chances of you speaking on the gunner net, direct to the gun line are virtually zero (only if the FOO had been killed and you had picked up his radio); even if you did, the format I have given would work well enough.
  10. Hogstable you would be better off, as The_Duke said, waiting until you can find someone qualified to teach this lesson. Your C3 (or whatever sappers are calling their signalers these days) should be trained up on the use of target indications.

    That aside the advice given by brave-coward is spot on and is almost the exact same as the example given in the reference material I was given by the CIS Division at the Support Weapons School in 2005.
  11. The_Duke

    The_Duke LE Moderator


    We are in firm agreement - Arty Tgt should be taught. Whether it should be taught on a TA drill night by someone with absolutely no knowledge of the subject is another matter.

    Training time in the TA is very limited, with little enough for the things we must do, let alone for nice to haves. Getting someone to teach a lesson on a subject they have absolutely no knowledge of is a recipe for a poor lesson and loss of credibility for the instructor.

    Hogstable: How are you on the rule of subtention? Bracketing vs Creeping? Effects of dead ground? Finding a "lost" round? Safety distances? Not trying to make you look daft, but teaching the format for the fire mission is the easy bit. Teaching the skills that allow you to adjust that fire is a bit more difficult.

    Many years ago I was in an OP when we allowed a number of officers and NCOs to call for live 81mm fire using Arty tgt. They all had the theory down pat, but it took them longer to adjust a single reasonably simple target than a trained observer would take to adjust targets and prepare for a deliberate Bn attack!

    Ask whoever organises your training to postpone the lesson and get in touch with your nearest Gunner unit or Mor Pl to see if they have someone willing to come in as a guest instructor. Fire controllers are usually very happy to teach the black art!
  12. Ah I see this has spread over to the Training Wing, as I said on the other post maybe the issue is you have been asked to deliver the wrong training. Let me guess this request has come from a young fresh faced subbie straight off their TACC and did some "Fire Mission Stuff" that was really cool and perfect to keep the lads entertained on a drill night.

    The issue, as stated in parts through out these 2 threads is a Fire Mission is not essentially a call for fire which is a more likely course of action for a NAG (Not A Gunner). The issue os not just the make up of a Fire Mission that has been explained in other posts and I won't bore you with that, but its delivered as Fire Orders NOT Voice Procedure, which is a different beast. Although the rules for Fire Orders aren't particularly hard to master they can trip you up as they fly in the face of Pam 2 Voice Procedure.

    My advice as stated in the other thread is deliver Arty Target Indication, this is used in the case of a POG (People Other than Gunners) who either

    a. Spots an opportune target or
    b. Needs to extract from contact

    but hasn't got an OP/FST standing next to them

    Arty Target Indication is the process, using VP, to guide the FST Commander onto the target you want smashed, it can even include adjustments (3 Guns) till either you call "ON TARGET" or the FST calls "IDENTIFIED"

    Check back on the Gunner thread as Petardier has posted a good example of what I am talking about.
  13. On a tangent - stick to using NAG, a POG (Person Other than Grunt) is what you are. As explained in this most excellent video

    GRUNT vs POGS - YouTube
  14. I know what a POG is, but then again we aren't US Marines
  15. Should of read this whole thread before answering and not simply replying to the gunner thread.

    Follow brave cowards post in lesson format, its spot on and exactly what I was getting at

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