Indirect fire mission - help needed

#1
Just been given a bit of a fast ball of a lesson for Tuesday. No Q man to ask so over to you chaps.

Got the format from Herrick Aide Memore

Hello this is ....... Is this to zero or would there be a specific Mor / Arty call sign to call?

Loc of Tgt

Bearing in Mils ................. take it that this is the mag brg?


What do you want done?


When

For how long .......how long would it be for 2 mins etc for neutralise?


Over to you, posted in training wing too to increase chances.

Cheers chaps
 
#4
Not an easy lesson to give if you dont now the subject, ensure you get it in your head before you go in the lesson! The bearing is so that the guns know where you are and also helps in the corrections because the corrections are from you and not from the guns so the guns need to know your relation to the target. (WO2 Ghandi, thats why you give the bearing!) Also remember that the bearing must be stated as grid or mag, all helps with the guns bearing and corrections. Fire mission is always given to those who are directing the guns, usually the Arty or the Mortars direct. What and for how long is your call but bear in mind that the guns maybe given restrictions that you are not aware of so you may not get what you want, make sure the description of the target is valid as this also helps the guns make the decision on what weight of fire to 'dispatch' you are unlikely to get a fire mission on 'Two men in open' for example. Dont forget the subtension rule and make sure that your slides/diagrams reflect the OT line and not the GT (Guns to Target) line. Good luck on the lesson but its a toughy for a fast ball if you havent taught it before or dont have the correct teaching aids.
 
#5
What use is a bearing, unless you happen to be stood next to the guns, doh.
Dont comment if you don't know, the guys needs help here and not sarky useless comments. he would have put it in the NAAFI if he wanted that. You obviously didnt know so just keep quiet eh?
 
#6
You only get allocated guns/rockets for a time bracket, you don't get a time to whack a target, it's done by rounds asked for followed by a repeat if more rounds needed.

ie; troops in open 5 rounds FFE.

Once OP has watched the fall of shot at the business end he'll decide if it needs more.
 
#7
You only get allocated guns/rockets for a time bracket, you don't get a time to whack a target, it's done by rounds asked for followed by a repeat if more rounds needed.

ie; troops in open 5 rounds FFE.

Once OP has watched the fall of shot at the business end he'll decide if it needs more.
The procedure can be a little different from reality but you can ask for a time. You can give neutralise for 5 mins in 5 mins for example but the guns will make the decision, as i said they may have restrictions that you dont know about. Like i said its a lesson that needs a lot of research!
 
#8
Still don't see what use a brg is. It won't fix a position without another bearing or distance. The best it could do is identify the risk if you overshoot or fall short of the target. If the OP had included the target GR I might have realised it was meant as extra info.
 
#9
Here's the set up we were using in afghan:

Hello you this is me fire mission 1 launcher, Grid 41SPR 75460 48850(this was direct from FST to us),
2x UKM carrying LBW in alleyway at east side of unmarked compound.
Frag
At My Command 1 rd FFE.

(from us to FST)
GTL
MVH. ft AMSL
ToF

Rdy
Fire
Shot
Splash
Rounds complete or repeat

Arty C/S are onslaught or salvo, I forget the mortar c/s.
 
#10
Still don't see what use a brg is. It won't fix a position without another bearing or distance. The best it could do is identify the risk if you overshoot or fall short of the target. If the OP had included the target GR I might have realised it was meant as extra info.
The bearing is the line on which any add/drop or left/right corrections will be made for adjusting the fall of shot. It can be any bearing you want to send, at the gun end it makes no odds, but it's a darn sight easier to work out the corrections from the observed fall of shot if you send the observer to target bearing.
 
#12
Thanks Almerkerky, that makes sense.
Thats what i said, you use the bearing at the gun end to work out what corrections needed to be applied to the guns. You need to know what bearing the observer is from the guns to do this. The observer cant give his own grid because the nasty boys would then know where he is! The observer obviously has to give the target grid or no one would know where it is and he did include this as one of the serials on his initial post.
 
#13
You obviously know the subject 'n I don't. However saying the guns need to know where you are contradicts not giving your position to the bad boys listening in to the net. I didn't realise the Op meant a GR by Loc of Tgt, so I apologise to him, he followed it by the bearing which made me think it was meant as one in the same thing.

The penny dropped on the fire correction because Almerkerkey explained how left, right etc depends on the line of site (the bearing). I assume the difference between mag 'n grid bearing would usually be too small to be relevant, but it would make sense to use mag & make life easier for the poor sods at the sharp end.
 
#14
C4564 obviously knows what he's on about and I bow to his current knowledge, I expect I am probably a bit behind the times but generally a basic fire mission would go something like:

"Hello 2 this is 21 fire mission battery (No of guns etc if you are going to adjust first) over"

"2 fire mission battery out" - Everything else that follows is read back by the CP exactly as it's sent from the OP -

"21, Grid 123 456, Altitude 50, direction 2100 mils Troops in Open At My Command Adjust fire over"

You could request things such as "Time of Flight" "Report Splash" etc at this point

The CP would report "Ready" when the Guns were layed and loaded on the information we had sent

"21, Fire over"

The CP will report "Shot" when the Guns had fired and "Splash" 5 seconds before fall of shot was due so you could pop your head up and be ready to adjust the fire if required, once you were happy with the rounds you would send for number of guns with an order for "Fire for Effect" on that particular target.

Once the number of rounds specified had been fired you would either call for a "Repeat" which would give you the same fire mission on the same date with the same number of guns again, or send the CP the "End of Mission" order followed with a "BDA", "Troops blown to bits good shooting" etc.


That's pretty much the basic fire mission from my hazy memory and I'm sure there are a some bits that people will fill in when they read it, but there are so many variations including fire plans, smoke, Illume FAC stuff etc etc and I don't even know if the still use the same fire orders but at least it might help with the basic idea.
 
#15
Hogstable,

What its your cap badge? If you are a gunner, then fair enough, but if another corps/regt then I would advise doing arty target indication rather than a full FM, as that is more likely tasking and can be delivered within the scope of a single lesson
 
#16
Wellyhead, agree with your ATI comment. If not a Gunner, then he doesn't need all the intricasies of a full FM. All he needs to know is how to send basic data to get rounds on the ground accurately and quickly. I know it's been answered before, but the point of a bearing in the initial FM request, is to indicate a general direction for the Guns to point. As most times (but not always) the OP and Guns are from the same Bty, then this will suffice as a Tgt indication. After which, all corrections will be given by the OP requesting the mission. His communications with the Guns/CP, and the Data sent will determine the quality and result of the shoot. But i am old, and this has probably all changed.
 
#17
Do another lesson! front up and say you cannot do it, if you take the lesson and fluff it your cred is down the tubes ( supposing you have some) It's ok being a can do person but why are you being asked to do the lesson? does it actually need to be taught now?
 
#19
You obviously know the subject 'n I don't. However saying the guns need to know where you are contradicts not giving your position to the bad boys listening in to the net. I didn't realise the Op meant a GR by Loc of Tgt, so I apologise to him, he followed it by the bearing which made me think it was meant as one in the same thing.

The penny dropped on the fire correction because Almerkerkey explained how left, right etc depends on the line of site (the bearing). I assume the difference between mag 'n grid bearing would usually be too small to be relevant, but it would make sense to use mag & make life easier for the poor sods at the sharp end.
Too small? How many meters off would a shell be, if it was fired using a mix-up of mag and grid over 17/25/30 kms? Assume the difference to be 10 mils.
 
#20
I think this is what you're trying to do is "ARTILLERY TARGET INDICATION PROCEDURES"

1. SPTD ARM SHOULD OFFER (TO OP/FOO/FST):
a. Opening Call – Hello G11 DE R21A FM over.
b. Where It Is - GR 621 445, DN 4550.
c. What It Is – Inf PL Posn at NE corner of Woods.
d. What Is To Be Done To It – Neutralise now for 5 mins .
2. FOO
a. Reads back then – “Wait out”.
b. Sends call for fire (3 guns in adjustment).
c. Attempts to identify target.
(i) If 'IDENTIFIED', then FOO reports “Identified” and conducts normal FM,
informs supported arm when complete.
(ii) If 'NOT IDENTIFIED' FOO reports "Not Identified Send Corrections" and
edits orders from supported arm until FFE complete or target identified.

This is from the FOO Aide Memoire, I suspect its in other publications in the EBB as well, it uses abbreviaion, obviously the words not abbreviations are actually spoken (Ie DN = Direction). The key is the two cases, if the FST can take over then they will, if they can't then you are going to have to do the adjustment process. There's also the potential problem of Danger Close.
 

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