India confirms the purchase of 36 Rafale in fly-away conditions

I struggle to understand why India is so fixated on the Rafale.
They already build the extremely formidable SU-30, which coupled with their very harsh and realistic training regimes means they are far and away the Top Dog of the entire region. Yes, they lose a (relatively speaking) lot of planes, but they fly the pants off them and their Pilots and they suffer a high incidence of bird strikes.
 
Meanwhile very brave Indian pilots are dying in droves because their system is unable and seemingly unwilling to replace the deathtrap Mig21.
I think the Tejas is what is meant to replace the MIG 21 to give them quantity. The Rafale is supposed to give them more high end capability in limited numbers.

I suspect the Indians are worried about fighting a two-front war against China and Pakistan. They want something cheap and cheerful (Tejas) to handle Pakistan and something more advanced (Rafale, or whatever) to handle the Chinese.

The PAK-FA will supposedly show up some day, but I suspect they can't wait forever and also want an insurance policy in case they have a falling out with Russia.

I agree in general though that their procurement policy seems to be doomed to failure. I think it's to at least some extent due to lack of joint effort between the various ministries involved.
 
Well it seems they have signed something else.....again:

India and France sign Rafale fighter jet deal - BBC News

Stop signing things and get delivering them! Im going to have to read back over this thread, I assume it will answer my question of why would India buy 36 Aircraft which need to operate in a much bigger force (ie. 36 refuellers or 15 MPA I get).
I suspect the deal for 36 is both face saving for India and avoiding an expensive challenge for compensation from Dassault as its become clear India cant afford the programme on the budget allocated.

There will be / is a new programme for X number of airframes and of course the Rafale may win this, however it may be that the 36 IAF Rafale are it in which case I'm of the opinion its little more than a burden on the logistic chain.

That's no disrespect to the Rafale - but its unlikely to be sufficiently different to what will be offered in the Mk 2 competition to justify a small fleet of an additional type which will have little or no commonality.
 
I suspect the deal for 36 is both face saving for India and avoiding an expensive challenge for compensation from Dassault as its become clear India cant afford the programme on the budget allocated.

There will be / is a new programme for X number of airframes and of course the Rafale may win this, however it may be that the 36 IAF Rafale are it in which case I'm of the opinion its little more than a burden on the logistic chain.

That's no disrespect to the Rafale - but its unlikely to be sufficiently different to what will be offered in the Mk 2 competition to justify a small fleet of an additional type which will have little or no commonality.
There's a big internal lobby for more MKI's and the US firms are upping the ante, especially LM with their F-16 production offer.
 
I suspect the deal for 36 is both face saving for India and avoiding an expensive challenge for compensation from Dassault as its become clear India cant afford the programme on the budget allocated.

There will be / is a new programme for X number of airframes and of course the Rafale may win this, however it may be that the 36 IAF Rafale are it in which case I'm of the opinion its little more than a burden on the logistic chain.

That's no disrespect to the Rafale - but its unlikely to be sufficiently different to what will be offered in the Mk 2 competition to justify a small fleet of an additional type which will have little or no commonality.
Sorry did you say India are running a MRCA part 2?
 
Here's an Indian article with more details: French fighter Rafale jet deal: An Indian saga - Times of India

The planes will be built in France.
For example, one mooted deal was to have seen Dassault assemble 108 out of 126 fighter jets on Indian soil.

But the French refused to assume responsibility for all the planes that were to be built in India.

"The Indians insist on such deals, but without always having the means or the expertise to carry them out. As a result, suppliers are reluctant to embark on this sort of agreement," said St. Mezard.

Faced with an urgent need to modernise its military, Modi's government finally opted for the direct sale of 36 ready-to-fly Rafale jets, which will be manufactured in France.
Whether the proposal to build 100 more in India will live on is a good question. I suspect it would have been a nightmare for Dassault.

There seems to be increasing pressure in India to focus on improved versions of the Tejas incorporating more imported technology rather than license building an entire foreign design. I will not be too surprised if that is the way they end up going over the next few years. This purchase of the Rafale will give them some breathing space and an insurance policy if they go in that direction.
 
Here's an Indian article with more details: French fighter Rafale jet deal: An Indian saga - Times of India

The planes will be built in France.


Whether the proposal to build 100 more in India will live on is a good question. I suspect it would have been a nightmare for Dassault.

There seems to be increasing pressure in India to focus on improved versions of the Tejas incorporating more imported technology rather than license building an entire foreign design. I will not be too surprised if that is the way they end up going over the next few years. This purchase of the Rafale will give them some breathing space and an insurance policy if they go in that direction.
Ref bold - As I understand it, its 36 French built and done and dusted contract finished.

The new competition is to find an aircraft for the other 100.
 
Guys, I am with MM on this. I am not remotely interested in a pissing contest about what Country X or Y does or does not have. If you have to have a pointless willy waving argument, take it to the NAAFI or PM, and leave this thread for discussion on Rafale.
Going by the thread title it would appear that the discussion would actually seem more about India getting Rafale??
 
Ref bold - As I understand it, its 36 French built and done and dusted contract finished.

The new competition is to find an aircraft for the other 100.
As I understand it the deal is done on the 36 but part of the agreement is dassault will invest at least half (€4 bill) directly into india. Given they have signalled they have no intention of letting the Indians manufacture Rafales I suspect a new Dassault division may be required. I'd suggest toilets but it's CA.
 

Cynical

LE
Book Reviewer
dassault will invest at least half (€4 bill) directly into india.
If that is anything like any other offset deal, the scope for what could be invested in and room for disagreement about how to do the maths to get to €4 Bn leaves plenty of scope for lawyers to make a mint...
 
Also, 36? That's such a small number to be of any meaningful use.....at least it looks to me that way. Just over a sqn's worth of jets in flying condition at any time?
 
Also, 36? That's such a small number to be of any meaningful use.....at least it looks to me that way. Just over a sqn's worth of jets in flying condition at any time?
They wanted a hundred odd + options iirc- but they wanted to licence build them - however India insisted Hal built them but - Dassault was (financially) liable for any errors Hal made and had to swallow the cost of correcting them - You may be less than surprised to learn Dassault's views on the matter were along the lines of Go Forth and Multiply. After 2 or so years of arguing it was agreed India would buy the 36 french built jets and thus endeth the negotiations - The other hundred aircraft are subject to a new negotiation.


Accusations involving Hollande and the Rafale deal have been rumbling in the French press for the past week or so - but I wasn't sure why - bit beyond my language abilities
 
They wanted a hundred odd + options iirc- but they wanted to licence build them - however India insisted Hal built them but - Dassault was (financially) liable for any errors Hal made and had to swallow the cost of correcting them - You may be less than surprised to learn Dassault's views on the matter were along the lines of Go Forth and Multiply. After 2 or so years of arguing it was agreed India would buy the 36 french built jets and thus endeth the negotiations - The other hundred aircraft are subject to a new negotiation.


Accusations involving Hollande and the Rafale deal have been rumbling in the French press for the past week or so - but I wasn't sure why - bit beyond my language abilities
As mentioned in the news story, the new deal cuts HAL out of the picture and Dassault has a new Indian partner - Reliance. A lot of the fuss is likely over the contract going to privately owned Reliance rather than state owned HAL.

The biggest problem is that a lot of India's most advanced planes are old Soviet designs license built by HAL. India needs new planes soon, and ones built to a better standard than HAL seems to manage. India's maintenance standards have come in for a lot of criticism as well.

Lockheed Martin had an agreement with Tata to move all F-16 production to India, and to serve the global market from there provided India bought the plane for themselves. This proposed deal came in for a lot of criticism because it was seen as LM offloading an obsolete design on India.

HAL also has their own plane, the Tejas, but that is a smaller and less sophisticated plane than the Rafale. India will be buying them to fill out the numbers and replace their existing Mig 21s, but they still want a high end plane to put up against the best they may face from China. HAL also have something called the Tejas 2, but it has suffered delay after delay. It is a bigger plane with a more powerful engine and more advanced electronics.

Some of the opposition to the Rafale seems to be inspired by Indians who see it as undercutting the justification for further development of the Tejas into something more sophisticated, and the latter plane has a lot of nationalistic appeal.

So there's a lot of pieces of the puzzle to put together to get to where India wants to go. They want a high end plane, but they also want it to be better built than HAL's efforts. They want it soon, because their existing high end planes are getting old so they want something that is flying now rather than waiting to see if the Tejas 2 will live up to its promise. They have a rag bag of different planes from different countries because they want to avoid too much dependence on any one foreign power. This isn't helping the support situation much because it means they operate a lot of incompatible designs.
 
The Japanese have run into similar concerns regarding HAL over the proposed licensed production of US-2 amphibians for an Indian long range SAR requirement.

Regards,
MM
 
Years ago a guy at Yeovil told me they sent all their tooling for casting to india for procurement savings, India didnt make one acceptable part and they brought them all back again!

Sounds a bit of BS to me as I would test the most complex tool before agreeing anything!

Years later on Hawk India we were told the IAF wanted BAES to build all the aircraft and not let HAL near them however in the end I dont think the Indian pilots needed any help crashing them.

Not really heard many good things about indian precision engineering.
 
Years ago a guy at Yeovil told me they sent all their tooling for casting to india for procurement savings, India didnt make one acceptable part and they brought them all back again!

Sounds a bit of BS to me as I would test the most complex tool before agreeing anything!

Years later on Hawk India we were told the IAF wanted BAES to build all the aircraft and not let HAL near them however in the end I dont think the Indian pilots needed any help crashing them.

Not really heard many good things about indian precision engineering.
That does not bode well for their ambitions of going to the moon does it!
 
They have a rag bag of different planes from different countries because they want to avoid too much dependence on any one foreign power. This isn't helping the support situation much because it means they operate a lot of incompatible designs.
I wouldn't want to be in charge of logistics and spares there for sure!
 

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