Independent: These are the realities of racism in Britain

[Bugsy]

On the whole, I find this a quite laughable argument. I don't remember "The Independent" making a lot of noise when other rags were castigating the Frog or the Krauts. It seems to be just an issue dug up (again) to flog copies.

When I was in the British Army, I served with British citizens from Canada, The Seychelles, Sri Lanka, India, Pakistan, The West Indies and from a myriad other nations. All received the same ribbing as Scousers, Brummies, Jocks, Taffs, Geordies, you name it. There was no harm in it.

Having said that, I do believe that certain perverts in the UK have an agenda with anyone who's not "Inglish" as far back as 20 generations, but I also believe that they're in the minority and deflecting from their own (personal) ostensible inferiorities. It's just that they've got such fückin' big gobs!

MsG

 

[Bugsy]

Another double-post. I apologise! What's the matter with the ARRSE server?
This has happened a couple of times now when I've posted. Or yers wouldn' be sneakin' on auld Bugsy now would yers?

MsG

 

[KGB_resident]

Russia requires every person to declare their ethnicity on their passport - Internal ID card

There was so called 5th point - nationality (ethnical identity) is Soviet internal passports. It has been removed from Russian ones. From my passport (that is in fact something like an ID-card) you can see what is my name, where I live, what police station registered me, am I married or not and what are names of my wife and children. But nothing about my ethnical identity. Few years after the collapse of Soviet union, soviet passports were used but now only Russian passports are in use.

 

[Ali_Gee]

Russia requires every person to declare their ethnicity on their passport - Internal ID card

There was so called 5th point - nationality (ethnical identity) is Soviet internal passports. It has been removed from Russian ones. From my passport (that is in fact something like an ID-card) you can see what is my name, where I live, what police station registered me, am I married or not and what are names of my wife and children. But nothing about my ethnical identity. Few years after the collapse of Soviet union, soviet paaports were used but now only Russian passports are in use.

Sorry if i was mistaken Sergei, I was there 3 years ago and things might have changed, I had ethnic, 3rd generation korean translators in Sakhalin who had to have their ethinic origins on their ID cards...izvani pazhalst

 

[Perevodchik]

Is Britain racist? Of course it is. Hoe else do you explain one group of people in London threatening to kill and behead another group with nothing being done about it?

 

[Jamie_Donnelly]

i think we are racist, but for good reason.

most of our "racsim" is banter. like on big bro.

people need to chill out, if they had indain big brother and they said "oh you eat with knive and fork dont you, or is that france?"

we wouldnt be in the ****ing street burning flags and protesting!!!

its true, indains eat with there hands, the indain woman should have said, yes we do, is there a problem.

its only racist if the "victim" knows something is wrong with them, and other people take the piss.

calling someone black is stating the Obvious, so unless the black person knows being black is inferiour or bad it isnt racist.

my brother bought a t-shirt saying "this man likes cock" i live in brighton so you know about the "additional popuation". if a gay guy found that offensive i would just laugh!!! come on mate, your gay, you like cock.

if a gay had a t-shirt saying "this man likes pussy" i wouldnt find it offensive, becuase its true!!! lol

people need to stop being stupid about racisum, its been going on for thousands of years, and to be frank... why stop now?

you could call me racist, but not in the way that i go around attacking blacks or smashing corner shop windows.

i am proud to be british and if any one comes to britain and changes laws and how we live to there liking, i really get pissed off!!!

THIS IS BRITAIN NOT LITTLE INDIA!!!!

Jamie

 

[acton_rifles]

Has all this really come from a modern day half wit making a fortune out of being a non-celebrity. What has become of our country. if you don't like what is happening on TV then turn it off and read a book.

simple fact

we all have people that we don't like. it doesn't , matter what colour or religion they are, if you don't like them, you don't like them. How you express this should not be considered racism, you simply don't like them.

so, must dash, i'm of to slay Jade for the benefit of the nation.

 

[Nehustan]

Ok I guess I was refusing to comment on big brother but this, although probably having genesis in the current program, warrants a serious response.

In the academic literature there is an interesting concept that is brought up; visibilty/invisibility. To expand Black is visible, and generally considered to carry associations, White is invisible and does not necessarily carry any significance. Quickly adding that we are talking in a WASP context, be that the UK, Germany or the US (even though actually in the US the largest creed is RC so not sure why its described as WASP, maybe because of the reigns of power???)

Plainly put the idea is that Black has inherent associations usually negative, whereas white has no associations and if they exist they are usually positive. For instance to delineate in a derogatory way a person from the white underclass or working class one might use the appellation 'White Trash' (ok an american term I know), however there is no expression 'Black Trash', the reason for this is quite obvious with 5 minutes thought.

Basically I'm framing an account I am about to give...

I was boarding a bus, I showed my card, walked to an available seat, and sat down. The bus began to pull away when a GTI swopped in front of the bus blocking the road. A guy jumped out and started shouting, I supsect the bus had cut him up some distance previously. As I watched three words entered my mind. I watched them appear from a deeper part of my mind and immediately found the phenomena very telling. The three words appeared in no particular order simultaneously 'Angry, Black, Man.' These words were desriptive for the guy was indeed all of the above. But this words were linked, they appeared at the same time, they were in my mind associated. Now if a white guy had jumped out of a car in the same way I'm pretty sure only two words would have appeared in my mind as descriptive 'Angry, man'. So my own mind chose to use the word Black as a method to comprehend the event in a way it would not have if the guy had been white. This illustrates the way that Black has come to have negative association and the deep level at which racism operates. I of course pulled myself up on this immediately, but even knowing the theories my mind automatically and immediately did what it was programmed to do. I can chat about social and political theories all night, but when push came to shove my mind made the categorisation irrespective of whether I like the term racist, or consider myself to be one.

 

[catton01]

I was talking to my grandad about racism and he was saying that its never changed. He was telling me that when he was about 20 him and his mates used to call black people N!993RS and no one said a thing but now all thats changed is people do something about it when it happens rather than nothing:S

 

[Tytus_Barnowl]

Good post HTL, my feelings exactly when I had to take part in a survey in the 90s concerning ethnic recruitment. My over-riding response was that the Army needs soldiers regardless of what they look like. Could you imagine the fallout if there were to be a female looks selection process? Quite frankly its a miracle that most can be distiguished from the men which on a reverse note makes them ideal as soldiers.
Perhaps if the rest of UK embraced this principle there would be no need to have discrimination laws which are an insult to most intelligent life forms.

GB racist? - well technically yes I agree. However Brits are generally racist against anyone who is different from the norm. The British are racist against Geordies, Scots, Welsh, Falkland Islanders, Pakistanis, Indians, Asians, Poles, Arabs, Cockneys, Scousers, Brummies, Aussies, South Africans, people with big ears, ginger hair, big noses, mullets and acne - all 'peculiar' results of genetics and regional/global up bringing.

Everybody on ARRSE is probably guilty of 'so called racism'. It used to be called 'banter' or 'pisss taking' a few years ago. People generally got used to it and got on with it, the exception being the 'sensitive' ones.

It seems to be the contemporary trend to label organisations/societies/services/individuals as racist. It keeps overpaid post graduate Labourite sycophants in overpaid jobs and allows them to hit themselves and everyone else over the head with a fekkin big (race) stick.

 

[Nehustan]

Funnily enough I proposed an advertising campaign some time ago for the army, and ironically when I try and find an image on google, I find exactly the one I proposed from my cousin's regiment as was. The advert would have been...

[align=center]

[/align]

[align=center]In the Army there is no black or white...everybody is green.[/align]

 

[Gun_Empty]

Of course individuals should be considered on their own individual merit, and I am not saying that racism doesn't exist, but surely different races/cultures have different characteristics and therefore different strengths and weaknesses? To argue otherwise would mean that the world is a bland place with everyone being the same. Therefore if you look at a race collectively there are bound to be anomolies in any discipline you consider. This does not necessarily mean that discrimination abounds (although it might), but that the statistics take in to account differences in aptitude as highlighted above. Eg asian people in medicine, oriental people in IT, women in primary schools, black people in sport, girls better at school than boys. All these examples probably don't represent racism at work, just differences. That's not a bad thing is it?

Yes all people should be treated equally and of course individuals should not be discriminated against because of their race or sex, but to pretend that we are all the same for fear of being labelled 'racist' is pathetic.

 

[Steven]

Ok I guess I was refusing to comment on big brother but this, although probably having genesis in the current program, warrants a serious response.

In the academic literature there is an interesting concept that is brought up; visibilty/invisibility. To expand Black is visible, and generally considered to carry associations, White is invisible and does not necessarily carry any significance. Quickly adding that we are talking in a WASP context, be that the UK, Germany or the US (even though actually in the US the largest creed is RC so not sure why its described as WASP, maybe because of the reigns of power???)

Plainly put the idea is that Black has inherent associations usually negative, whereas white has no associations and if they exist they are usually positive. For instance to delineate in a derogatory way a person from the white underclass or working class one might use the appellation 'White Trash' (ok an american term I know), however there is no expression 'Black Trash', the reason for this is quite obvious with 5 minutes thought.

Basically I'm framing an account I am about to give...

I was boarding a bus, I showed my card, walked to an available seat, and sat down. The bus began to pull away when a GTI swopped in front of the bus blocking the road. A guy jumped out and started shouting, I supsect the bus had cut him up some distance previously. As I watched three words entered my mind. I watched them appear from a deeper part of my mind and immediately found the phenomena very telling. The three words appeared in no particular order simultaneously 'Angry, Black, Man.' These words were desriptive for the guy was indeed all of the above. But this words were linked, they appeared at the same time, they were in my mind associated. Now if a white guy had jumped out of a car in the same way I'm pretty sure only two words would have appeared in my mind as descriptive 'Angry, man'. So my own mind chose to use the word Black as a method to comprehend the event in a way it would not have if the guy had been white. This illustrates the way that Black has come to have negative association and the deep level at which racism operates. I of course pulled myself up on this immediately, but even knowing the theories my mind automatically and immediately did what it was programmed to do. I can chat about social and political theories all night, but when push came to shove my mind made the categorisation irrespective of whether I like the term racist, or consider myself to be one.

Had to read that twice to understand what you were on about.

You are beating yourself up for using a descriptive word? There you have a perfect example of what is wrong.

Using the term black to describe someone isn't wrong, but you feel as if it is due to the propoganda foisted on us. Say you see a group of 5 people and had point out 2 of them to someone else in a hurry.

Would you say something like, "You need the person in the dress with the long hair and the person in shirt and trousers with the short hair cut and blue tie."

Or would you say, "You need the woman and the black guy."

Assuming of course there is only one of each in the group.

Now from your post I think you would probably go for the first option but can you see how silly that is?

 

[BoomShackerLacker]

Huge generalisation coming up; standby!

Those born in working class communities from the 40s/early 50s have deep rooted pejorative views of 'difference' per se. My F-in-L is the finest individual on earth, apart from putting HP sauce on everything during meals, including Chicken Korma, but his default position tends to be foreigners are fractionally a sub species.

 

[Papa_Lazarou]

The greatest danger in pushing racism as an issue is over exposure and a sense of alienation disproportionate to the actual facts as lived in the real world.

When i went to school, just North of London half my class were of different ethnicity, now at Infants and Junior schools we all played together and went round each others houses and just didnt seem to notice. Then as we went to secondary schools everyone seemed to gradually splinter into groups based around their own ethnicity and eventually there was a good degree of group based fighting between groups after school and at social events.

How did this come about? My theory is that from all sectors of that society we were all pushed into seeing our differences by older kids and our parents and over time that becomes the divide.

To follow the media portrayal racism is white vs anyone else, but i can say first hand that blacks were equally as violently racist towards whites and asians in the UK long before the media invented "institutional racism".

Also prejudices and racism are not the same to my mind. Prejudices are automatic and involountary and racism is the physical manifestation of those prejudices. Therefore i dont believe you can choose prejudices but you can certainly choose not to be racist.

The Army is a good example of how racism can be effectively removed from everyday life. Where individuals are ignorant of other groups it is easy to generalise and prejudices are bred. Wherever soldiers deploy they see real people in the real world living and often dying but see beyond colour, religion or ethnicty to the core human values, hopes and dreams. That then removes the ability to see one nation or ethnic group as a group and genuine affinity and respect develops.

This is not mandated, legeslated or controlled by the CO or RSM, it is a silent evoloutionary process as people gain experience in the world around us.

If you sit on your fat arse in your free house eating chips all day every day and the only experience you have is 7 days in Falaraki every summer and watching BB then it is unlikely you will ever over come your prejudices developing to racism or even want to.

Likewise if you refuse to speak english or interact outside your Muslim community and have a staple diet of radical Saudi Islam it is unlikely that you will develop beyond Chav St Chav above.

That doesnt mean we can all hold hands and sing songs till dusk, people are almost entirely still cnuts in the main, but they are cnuts because they are cnuts, not because they are white/black/grey/gay/Tony Bliar.

And thats all i have to say about that

 

[Myss]

Ok I guess I was refusing to comment on big brother but this, although probably having genesis in the current program, warrants a serious response.

In the academic literature there is an interesting concept that is brought up; visibilty/invisibility. To expand Black is visible, and generally considered to carry associations, White is invisible and does not necessarily carry any significance. Quickly adding that we are talking in a WASP context, be that the UK, Germany or the US (even though actually in the US the largest creed is RC so not sure why its described as WASP, maybe because of the reigns of power???)

Plainly put the idea is that Black has inherent associations usually negative, whereas white has no associations and if they exist they are usually positive. For instance to delineate in a derogatory way a person from the white underclass or working class one might use the appellation 'White Trash' (ok an american term I know), however there is no expression 'Black Trash', the reason for this is quite obvious with 5 minutes thought.

Basically I'm framing an account I am about to give...

I was boarding a bus, I showed my card, walked to an available seat, and sat down. The bus began to pull away when a GTI swopped in front of the bus blocking the road. A guy jumped out and started shouting, I supsect the bus had cut him up some distance previously. As I watched three words entered my mind. I watched them appear from a deeper part of my mind and immediately found the phenomena very telling. The three words appeared in no particular order simultaneously 'Angry, Black, Man.' These words were desriptive for the guy was indeed all of the above. But this words were linked, they appeared at the same time, they were in my mind associated. Now if a white guy had jumped out of a car in the same way I'm pretty sure only two words would have appeared in my mind as descriptive 'Angry, man'. So my own mind chose to use the word Black as a method to comprehend the event in a way it would not have if the guy had been white. This illustrates the way that Black has come to have negative association and the deep level at which racism operates. I of course pulled myself up on this immediately, but even knowing the theories my mind automatically and immediately did what it was programmed to do. I can chat about social and political theories all night, but when push came to shove my mind made the categorisation irrespective of whether I like the term racist, or consider myself to be one.

Had to read that twice to understand what you were on about.

You are beating yourself up for using a descriptive word? There you have a perfect example of what is wrong.

Using the term black to describe someone isn't wrong, but you feel as if it is due to the propoganda foisted on us. Say you see a group of 5 people and had point out 2 of them to someone else in a hurry.

Would you say something like, "You need the person in the dress with the long hair and the person in shirt and trousers with the short hair cut and blue tie."

Or would you say, "You need the woman and the black guy."

Assuming of course there is only one of each in the group.

Now from your post I think you would probably go for the first option but can you see how silly that is?

Also remember the term 'in the black' in regards to financial status means being flush with cash.
Perhaps some people would just mention the colour as it's different from their own skin; I've heard it before i.e. when I visited a school, looking for a particular teacher and the two african kids I asked were descriptive to state the teacher's white skin colour. Oh well, c'est la vie. Whatever reason it is mentioned, as long as it's relevant to the issue/task/picture/whatever, would, I guess, be practical and, in some cases, necessary.

Re. another post on here, as much as you may think over-pc racist accusations are made by overreactive ethnic minority people (or I have I got your post wrong?), there could be as much people who disagree with an action from the same race or those who think that race would/should/could be offended when it's the opposite reaction, for example this silly big bother row, I've seen as much people from the Indian community on the news disagreeing with the racist tag than I see agreeing wth it.
But IMO there is a problem with racism in this country, always has more so than ever because of the above (not the poster's view, those who overplay the pc-card when it has nothing to do with it) and having a government allowing their councils, agencies, depts, etc introducing unfair policies and funding for particular race groups pushing those who feel violated by them to vote for far-right groups as a protest vote but giving them unfair limelight in the process.

I can't wait for this sodding stupid CH4 programme that prompted the article to finish and we could bloody well get on with getting on.

 

[Nehustan]

To be honest guys and gals, I don't, nor did, beat myself up about it. I actually found it interesting as a study in my own psychological process. The subsequent post about prejudice and racism I found the be very pertinent and definitely rang true with me...

 

[PandaLOVE]

I disagree Sergei, GB is very racist.

There is a de-facto colour bar on many public service jobs, for instance if you try joining the Somerset Police you'd better not be a white heterosexual man.

And no I'm not a member of BNP, nor a sympathiser of them.

But under the current Labourite 'label everyone as a racist' you feel that you must justify your comments.

Spot on. When talking openly about this issue how often do we start by saying? 'I'm not racist but...' We always seem to think we must defend our opinions. We are all humans therefore react with human nature and it is natural to be protective of your own kind. I am not racist in an aggresive sense, but..... (see, I'm defending my opinion), when I see who we are warring with, the reasons for war, who wishes to attack the West, immigration, levels of tolerance etc. it is human nature for me to be worried about our future and oppose those who threaten it. If this natural defence of what is mine makes me 'protectively racist', then yes, I am racist. I am tolerant too and it is only this tolerance that will ensure social harmony.

The Govt. wants this as does every decent UK citizen regardless of race.

 

[Chalky]

One positive thing that has dribbled out of the mess that is 'Celebrity' Big Brother is that it has caused this nation to examine its attitudes towards race and, largely, I think it has not been found wanting.

My own opinion is that it's not the words, but rather then intent which determines whether something is racist, and I doubt Jade Goody has the intelligence to use language in such a subtle way. I suspect that her words lacked any friendly meaning.

A favourite cartoon of mine is titled 'Fighting Racism through Racism'

A white man turns to a black man and says 'Chinks, eh?' to which the black man simply replies, 'Yeah'.

I regularly refer to my Iranian chum as a 'Damned dirty terrorist', my Chinese friend as a 'slitty-eyed, wok-wielding git' and a French friend as 'French' or, occasionally 'Sharpe's Fodder'.

They return with some equally erudite observations about my own ethnicity and so the world turns.

There's room in this country yet for intelligent debate. 2/3 people who responded to this poll do not believe that racism is an issue in this country and most of those who have contributed have done so in a measured and, dare I say, academic way. This doesn't necessarily represent the feelings of the unwashed masses, but I doubt it's too far off.

 

[intli]

There is racism in UK. I don't think it is a big problem as a whole, I also think it varies depending on the area in UK in which you live. Those who live in areas of high immigration, where local/central govt have used 'positive' measures to ensure 'equality' will have different views and feelings than those who live in predominently white areas.

Furthermore, look at the non-whites/immigrants in the UK at the moment.
They vary in attitudes by age as well as nationality. Blacks are all brothers - so they keep selling, but are they? Afro Caribbeans look down on African blacks as uneducated and lower class, UK home grown (4th generation) regard themselves as superior to immigrants and try to mimic their American cousins as role models - note the dress style in the cities and towns.

Chinese regard themselves as superior as having had a civilisation whilst the West were running round in skins, they also look down on their Asian neighbours. The Japanese feel the same, and a cut above the rest. Both regard Koreans as second class.

Indians and Pakistanis likewise. With Indians the caste system provides a divide - less strong here than in the homeland among the 4th generation.
Pakistanis regard their eastern relatives, Bangladashis, as little more than pond life, much as a lot of Whites regard their own on sink estates.

Look at those who follow Islam, the largest religion in the world, where all are brothers through faith. Or are they? In the gulf the majority of migrant workers are from other Moslem countries and they are treated like crap - the Arabs feel superior to them. As for the Arabs they regard the Palestinians as the poor relatives, to be used as a workforce or as a guilt trip for the West against Israel when it suits them.

Most East Europeans are racist and there is an underlying anti-semitism to go with it.

In UK I think there is a majority view of live and let live, and a true belief in fairness for everyone regardless. However, when some of the liberal PC types get on a guilt trip and try and square the circle then that raises the subject to the surface and the prejudice comes out.

Some of the prejudice may not be felt to be that, more a protest against resources or money being given to those who 'don't deserve it', 'haven't worked for it' or are taking money from those more deserving.

Also as long as we have a 'race industry' with the baggage of advisors, community leaders, spokespeople, legal eagles, advice centres, action groups and human rights specialists then this country will never fully settle into a homogenous society where differences are noted but tolerated especially when someone wants 'special treatment'.

Anyway, that's my sixpenneth on the subject and I'll continue to read the other views as the thread develops