Incident at Castle Martin 14-06-2017

You agree that it’s not answerable, but you still want to pursue an answer.

Beggars belief.
He will keep going until he has shifted his position to that of everybody else then claim that was his assertion in the first place.

Not forgetting the subject of this thread

"A senior coroner has already heard RTR soldiers giving evidence stating the charge-bags, which propel shells out the barrel, were habitually stored outside special protective containers, called charge bins, in the turret. "

"Lt Col Ridgway said the practice “had become normalised in a way I had not appreciated”.

He said: “I have to admit I sort of felt physically sick when I heard people were stowing them out of the bins.

“If for one moment I suspected they were storing them incorrectly, I would have been furious.”

No licence whatsoever for the practice. Lt Col Ridgeway sound a perfectly decent man not the kind of cowboy who would suggest breaking the quite clear and necessary rules.

He is an officer in a CR2 Regiment who understands these things not some amateur from the Light Cav.
 
They were out and exposed in the turret. It was established in the investigation and by the coroner.
Not the cause of the initial flashback, primary seal failure.


That then would have contributed big time to a breech explosion/flashback into the turret.
 
He will keep going until he has shifted his position to that of everybody else then claim that was his assertion in the first place.

Not forgetting the subject of this thread

"A senior coroner has already heard RTR soldiers giving evidence stating the charge-bags, which propel shells out the barrel, were habitually stored outside special protective containers, called charge bins, in the turret. "

"Lt Col Ridgway said the practice “had become normalised in a way I had not appreciated”.

He said: “I have to admit I sort of felt physically sick when I heard people were stowing them out of the bins.

“If for one moment I suspected they were storing them incorrectly, I would have been furious.”

No licence whatsoever for the practice. Lt Col Ridgeway sound a perfectly decent man not the kind of cowboy who would suggest breaking the quite clear and necessary rules.

He is an officer in a CR2 Regiment who understands these things not some amateur from the Light Cav.
Beggars belief to me as an old and bold gunnery instructor, on live firing on the ranges there are regimental instructors over seeing turret crews, Lulworth schools instructors lurking during regimental firing. Times have changed and standards seem to have been allowed to slip big time.
 
Not the cause of the initial flashback, primary seal failure.


That then would have contributed big time to a breech explosion/flashback into the turret.
That’s not what you stated.

The BVA was not fitted. - Equipment fault.

Charge bags were not stored correctly - error of drill.

There were other failings, but these were the main two that contributed to the deaths and VSI.
 
That’s not what you stated.

The BVA was not fitted. - Equipment fault.

Charge bags were not stored correctly - error of drill.

There were other failings, but these were the main two that contributed to the deaths and VSI.
Out of interest, and I'm guessing at the turret was unbuttoned at the time of the incident: had the ignition occurred with the turret closed, how much more severe would have been the damage?

I kinda wonder because of earlier talk of 'lining up bag charges on the turret floor'

One spark of sufficient size, and that's your C2 turret off downrange like a Brock's bottle rocket, isn't it?
 
Out of interest, and I'm guessing at the turret was unbuttoned at the time of the incident: had the ignition occurred with the turret closed, how much more severe would have been the damage?

I kinda wonder because of earlier talk of 'lining up bag charges on the turret floor'

One spark of sufficient size, and that's your C2 turret off downrange like a Brock's bottle rocket, isn't it?
As you’re probably aware, charge bags burn ferociously creating huge amounts of gas and pressure. If the vehicle was battened down this pressure would be contained, either causing the turret to shatter (unlikely I suspect) or the gas will attempt to escape from the weakest points. It could, conceivably, cause the turret to pop off (if seen this on a warrior as a result of a large IED).

The guys in side wouldn’t just be burned, they would be pink mist.

This you tube video shows the effects of containing low explosives.

 
That’s not what you stated.

The BVA was not fitted. - Equipment fault.

Charge bags were not stored correctly - error of drill.

There were other failings, but these were the main two that contributed to the deaths and VSI.
Difference in terminology over the years, I presume that the BVA is designed to form the primary seal once the loading sequence is completed. The same function as the obturators on CH and CR1 the difference being that there were visible indicators to the loader to stop the sequence if there was a primary seal failure.

As I said I am no expert on CR2.. Bag charges not stowed then that sadly is down to the crew in this case two instructors, BVA not fitted and the main armament will still complete the circuit and fire, I would suggest is a major design error ,not a fault.
 
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As you’re probably aware, charge bags burn ferociously creating huge amounts of gas and pressure. If the vehicle was battened down this pressure would be contained, either causing the turret to shatter (unlikely I suspect) or the gas will attempt to escape from the weakest points. It could, conceivably, cause the turret to pop off (if seen this on a warrior as a result of a large IED).

The guys in side wouldn’t just be burned, they would be pink mist.

This you tube video shows the effects of containing low explosives.

So - no surprises there.
Leaving only the question of how, in a combat scenario, with a properly assembled main armament, a cause of ignition might arise in the closed confines of a turret on a Chally 2.

I suspect there is no real answer to that, but given the likely outcome (and the Admiral Beatty example) it doesn't seem to commend itself as an option for the pragmatically competent commander.
 
As I said I am no expert on CR2.. Bag charges not stowed then that sadly is down to the crew in this case two instructors, BVA not fitted and the main armament will still complete the circuit and fire, I would suggest is a major design error,not a fault.
When investigating an Ammo incident there is an established list of causes to record against to identify any trends, one of the available causes will be Equipment fault, it may even be more specific and state equipment fault (design). This is distinct from equipment failure, where there is nothing wrong with the design, but the equipment has failed to function as intended.

There can be an instance where Equipment fault and equipment failure both occur. Systems should fail safe, if they do not and the failure increases the danger, then it is also an Equipment fault.
 
So - no surprises there.
Leaving only the question of how, in a combat scenario, with a properly assembled main armament, a cause of ignition might arise in the closed confines of a turret on a Chally 2.

I suspect there is no real answer to that, but given the likely outcome (and the Admiral Beatty example) it doesn't seem to commend itself as an option for the pragmatically competent commander.
I’ve never been in the turret of a Chally 2, but isn’t there a breech shield that has to be pulled across before firing? If heard tales of this shield being overridden to increase firing rates.

It’s quite possible that it was accepted that the system could still fire with the BVA removed as the shield would provide adequate protection to the crew from flashbacks and there was no anticipation that charge bags would be held outside their storage.
 
. . . because it is forbidden, for good reason, and no competent commander would override that restriction, would seem to be the logical thing here.
As I said earlier I am totally bewildered as to how this culture seems to have been allowed to creep in to the training regime, for a Lt Col' to state that he was not aware is unbelievable, he has a regimental gunnery officer, he has a regimental gunnery SNCO there would be gunner mech's in each squadron as well as regimental gunnery instructors, to think that every man jack of them has been brain washed into thinking that these "new drills" were authorised leaves me speechless.
 
As I said earlier I am totally bewildered as to how this culture seems to have been allowed to creep in to the training regime, for a Lt Col' to state that he was not aware is unbelievable, he has a regimental gunnery officer, he has a regimental gunnery SNCO there would be gunner mech's in each squadron as well as regimental gunnery instructors, to think that every man jack of them has been brain washed into thinking that these "new drills" were authorised leaves me speechless.
A Caecilius in every squadron, perhaps? :)
 
I’ve never been in the turret of a Chally 2, but isn’t there a breech shield that has to be pulled across before firing? If heard tales of this shield being overridden to increase firing rates.

It’s quite possible that it was accepted that the system could still fire with the BVA removed as the shield would provide adequate protection to the crew from flashbacks and there was no anticipation that charge bags would be held outside their storage.
It could be a long night Dingerr, it is possible to fire the main armament on "the trip" I will not divulge how, the shield in theory directs any flashback away from the loader, so the commander get's it !
I had the misfortune to suffer the failure of 2 sets of obturators on the same range day, both produced quite impressive jets of flame into the turret, the first more scary as we were completely closed down and the over pressure was pretty painful, the second an hour later occurred with the 2nd set fitted after the gunfitters has cleared everything for firing, first round down blew the seals, not as bad as we were opened up, ATO was called out to check the bag charge batch but I never heard the result of his investigation,
 
That’s not what you stated.

The BVA was not fitted. - Equipment fault.

Charge bags were not stored correctly - error of drill.

There were other failings, but these were the main two that contributed to the deaths and VSI.
Can you help us out with the difference between 'error of drill' and 'error in drill?' I was told once but 'twas donkey's years ago...
 
Can you help us out with the difference between 'error of drill' and 'error in drill?' I was told once but 'twas donkey's years ago...
Error of drill would involve there being a mistake being made in the construction of the original lesson plan of the drill, and then not picked up, subsequently then taught as the correct procedure. Error in drill I think speaks for itself, although in this particular incident it seems that there were no drills any longer.
 

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