In case anyone wondered why we need a Navy...

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by P2000, Jul 22, 2009.

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  1. The Navy PR machine seems to have decided that it's losing ground at the moment...

    A good, if brief and occasionally impenetrable article. Thoughts?

  2. Naive thought from me
    but why fight if not to win?
    This seems to say win IF necessary
    Winning is paramount for a top table player that we purport to be, surely?
  3. Yup - b*llocks for the most part. This is still a "we need aircraft carriers" to fight pirates, prevent illegal fishing, produce an enduring security presence in the choke points, patrol the West African littoral, etc etc. In other words a fantasy in which the UK does 21st century style gunboat diplomacy with a ship that costs £5million a day in running costs (so leave out the costs of its escorts). If we want to be agile we would not involve ourselves in acquisition projects that are so "in-agile" - the inability of the Royal Navy to transfer very much o its resource to fight the current war is an example of this inflexibility, and would be no better with 2 aircraft carriers and a couple of Type 45s. What happens if somebody else re-writes the rules on us once these beasts are afloat ? How do we transfer out anything from this investment into something that is supportive of a current "fight" that yet again surprises us ? You can bet on the Chinese, by then, fielding (and selling ?) anti carrier ballistic missiles......
  4. P.S. Band is prepared to mortgage away the rest of the RN in pursuit of this goal. This puff piece in the Guardian is clearly a desparate, desparate attempt to attract any limelight at all....
  5. My bold. Call me a bluff old traditionalist, but shouldn't the whole point of defence policy be to provide the capabilities needed to fight the next war / to provide the big stick with which to 'exert influence' in support of our national interests.

    If the UK's national interest has dwindled to wanting to fight some pirates, and fish patrol, then fair play to you.

    If, on the other hand, we remain a major global economy which is based on international trade, and whose citizens depend on the outside world for access to the basic goods and services we need to maintain our quality of life, then maybe, just maybe, he has a point?
  6. Clarify - do you know where we will be standing globally by the time the ships are built, JSF bought and integrated ? Below China, India, Brazil to name a few. Prioritise what you must do, and ensure what you have does n't prevent short term re-investment in areas that crop up as the threat mutates. In some respects the proportionately lower capital expenditure inherent in land forces (less platfom-centric) makes it easier to transform when the situation becomes one we did n't plan for. Aircraft carriers are more a statement of national vanity than they are about making intelligent, strategic investment. They will be a "Wasting asset" and one that wastes faster than most.
  8. I believe John Nott said that in 1981. What happened next?
  9. I wish people would stop falling for the büllshit pushed out by Labour.

    Britain can afford:

    At least 3 full aircraft carriers and their full complement of escorts.
    The replacement for Trident.
    Typhoon (full complement as initially envisaged).
    A fully equipped Army of about 150,000 (not including reserves and a well equipped and trained TA).


    Slash the welfare state and the intrusion of the State into everyday life.

    1. Stop paying people not to work. Why have we got Poles and Romanians (blóódy hard workers and decent chaps on the whole) working in our fields when there are 3-5 million unemployed in the UK? Unemployment benefit should be claimed for up to 1 year (and at a higher level than at present). After that, a person can reject 2 jobs from the job centre, after that: zero dosh.
    2. Streamline the entire benefits industry: cancel all tax credits and similar devices: simply raise the threshold of income tax for the low earners and re-introduce real married allowance.
    3. Child benefits: instead of paying people to have babies, give the same cash amount as a tax break from the wife/husbands salary. Thus instead of receiving x quid per month from the government, a parent pays x quid less tax. If they are not working then they get fúck all benefit. This will stop the chav underclass from breeding like rats (as they currently are).
    4. Source products both from the UK and worldwide: not just EU.
  10. Oh please, the most bollocks is that that you've just written.
    The RN needs aircraft carriers to continue to be a blue-water navy, not for fighting pirates and preventing illegal fishing. Where did you get your ridiculous £5 million a day running cost from? Or did you just make it up? CVF is expected to have a running cost of around £50m per year, about £140,000 per day. It won't always have escorts, so they don't need to be included. The Invincible class carriers currently have a running cost of around £70m per year and this will only increase as they get older.
    Exactly what more RN resources do you think should be transferred? Considering this is a land war, the RN provides a disproportionate amount of resources, especially manpower. Do you expect a T23 on the Helmand River?
    And what the fuck is an 'anti-carrier' ballistic missile? Anti-ship missiles have existed for decades, some of them are very good. Doesn't mean that Navies are obsolete any more than small arms have removed soldiers from the battlefield.

    Do you know where we will be standing globally by the time the ships are built? China and India have their standing in the world because of their massive populations. Brazil is a South American basket case. Britain maintains its position in the world by being economically vital, that means trade, which means we have to protect that trade, and that means power projection.
    What are your 'cheaper' land forces going to do when they can't get to the fight? CVF is a purple asset, not a dark blue one.
  11. Dread for PM :)
  12. I like this, especially the bits about the Chavs! Seriously though, it shows you what a f**king mess we've gotten ourselves into when the amount of money we spend on welfare distorts everything else.
  13. Dread: cloud cuckoo land calling! Much as I might agree with your solutions listed above, I honestly don't think they are a starter for ten. Certainly until you become PM that is as Flatcap says!

    And I've just one problem with what Ottar says in his last paragraph/sentence about "what are your cheaper land forces going to do when they can't get to the fight?". Do they get transported to 'Stan by carrier currently? No, the other blue lot does it!

  14. Brilliant post and bang on the money!