Impact of civilian logistic support to the RLC

Discussion in 'RLC' started by General Melchett, Sep 23, 2005.

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  1. General Melchett

    General Melchett LE Moderator

    It would appear that more and more use is made of civvie contracts to do what would otherwise be military tasks. Tank transporter and movement of stores being two examples.

    What are your views on the subject? Good thing or bad thing?
  2. I think it's a really good idea................ until the poo hits the fan and the civvies run for cover then the whole Cake & Arrse party falls apart and we look like dicks in front of the world.

  3. Having worked for some defence companies in my time and seen the other side of the fence I'd say it can be a good idea, but:

    Remember that you get what you pay for - and nothing, repeat nothing else. You can always get some surge capability out of soldiers (we're on shifts now and forget about weekends lads, there's a war on) but you'll get sod all out of civvies unless you stick your hand in your pocket for overtime - and even then they may simply not have any spare staff or equipment available. Remember, a truly efficient organisation has zero surge capability available - as unused capacity costs money.

    I thought tank transporters were sponsored reserves - ie they are all in the TA as a condition of employment and don DPM when the shooting starts. Not a bad idea until you fail half of them at Chilwell for teeth and so on.
  4. You can take a look at what happened to the Chef trade, or the Military Clerk trade for the effects of civilianisation.

    Need a chef to knock up soup etc at 10pm because you've had your guys out late into the evening? Good luck - or a large cheque to Sodexho.

    Want some photocopying done or something suitably at 5pm and you'll walk into the Admin Office to find all the civilian staff sitting there with their coats on - if they haven't already disappeared.

    Start getting Eddie Stobart to move stores around and I do wonder what RLC transport regiments will do for training. Watch the one DROPS that Whole Fleet Management has left them for training purposes perhaps?
  5. I have to disagree,
    The use of civvies to do our jobs is taking away most of the opportunities for us to do our job on a day to day basis and gain valuable experience for future Ops.
    When it comes to a war senario or other ops the junior members of our corps havnt got a clue.
    Im a Dvr110 and see inexperienced dvrs going on op tours with very little experience of what its all about. Anyone can drive a truck but when you get a flat tyre and dont have a spare to hand what do you do?.Youngsters wouldnt have a scooby give them a new tyre and they would expect to take it to the local CRB. Ok In Iraq they have the facilities to do that but when it first kicked off there wasnt. Ive changed 32000ltr tanker tyres with shovels, repaired accelerator cables with boot laces and drops accelerator linkages with zip ties, If a truck wont go and I cant get it going then is definatly a REME job. Now with the use of civvies doing most of our jobs my boys are left to do "A jobs" day in day out, this is why so many sign off when they can cause they dont get to do what they joined up for. And its not just fixing breakdowns, cause the blokes dont drive regularly they dont get experienced in handling different loads, when it comes to restraining a load that have never seen before it take hours to work out where to put the restraints.
    I could harp on for ages on this subject but wont as I dont want to bore anyone.
    In short, civvies are doing our jobs and are taking away valuable experience that is vital to our operational effectivness.
  6. Do you remember the 'Mo-Jo's' Melchy? Those old Polish Guys who drove Antars for 16 Sqn? They were brill. The average age was about 65 yrs old. I think they got paid in onions and gulasch but they all smoked No6, so there must have been some perks for the old codgers. I think they died out (literally) in the late 80's.
  7. Mo-Jo's or Mixed Service Organisation (MSO) did more than just drive Tank Transporters!They drove buses as well as manning Transport Squadrons. After National Service ended Spanish, Protégées and Pakistani MSO work gangs stacked the Ammo and POL in the BAOR Stores Depots, (We still had reserve Ammo and POL dumps then) Dog Handlers patrolled the secure areas. But we still had more military Transport Regiments than Mo-Jo's We still had RAVC and Pioneer Dog Handlers to take over.

    COD's had civilian work forces even then. But they were backed up by a military workforce. During the Falklands and First Gulf War the depot civi's worked as hard as the military. But the point is there were military to do the evening and night shifts. Not only have the Supply Regiments who manned the depots been disbanded, but the civi workforce have also been cut in the name of cost effectiveness.

    DSDC has changed from Reserves held "Just in Case" to Supply from Trade "Just in Time" (More like "Just to Late")
  8. I have to admit that the method by which the MoD is whoreing off its vital services disturbs me slightly. Whilst in the past civilians employes where employed by the MoD and were employed as part of a military unit with a military structure (including the MSO) being commandeed by an officer or superintendant. Now large contracts are undertaken by private companies unnacountable to your average squaddie. For example , if a corporal were to go to a privately owned cookhouse and find that either packed meals were not prepared or an early meal was not prepared then what can he do to a civilian chef who shrugs their shoulders and says 'Ooops' ? What can he do? Bollock him? Punch him? Charge him?
    Another issue which has been poorly thought out is that some trades have become almost redundent, even though we still need them with a full skills set which has suffered due to their job now being done by a contacted civilain with set hours and conditions of employment who now does what they used to do letting their skills set evaporate slowly, and what will this do for retention when people join to do a job which in fact a civvy does and gets paid more for and they stag on and sweep empty vehicle hangers?
  9. Because the government works on a maximum of a five year plan (like all good dictatorships) and the Army on the financial year culture no-one seems to see the long term costs of these measures. Quality soldiers do not join the Army to sweep the stores shed, they want to be taxed (within reason) and not just on their LSSA. The civilianisation of their jobs essentially robs them of job satisfaction.

    In BFG they got rid of all Army hospitals and got German civilian hospitals to provide medical cover. I often wonder if the cost saving of these initiatives has worked out in the long term. Whether the savings made by of closing the BMHs was anywhere close to the cost of retraining all those soldiers in Gutersloh or Bielefeld who got out cause there were no women to be had and they were sick of looking across the bop at the sisterhood before going back to the block to abuse themselves!