Immigration & the Economy

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Pork_Pie, Jul 30, 2006.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. Link

    Interesting article in The Telegraph.
  2. Excellent article, even the Home Office is circulating classified memos exposing the lies. Nice to be proved right.
  3. Very good article,
    My question is though, how do we stop it? ......sensible answers only please, ie, a policy that we might actually have a chance of implementing....I know I'm at a loss to come up with a solution, thank fcuk it's not my job to!
  4. We stop it by withdrawing from EU Human Rights legislation and making illegal entry into UK an arrestable criminal offence. It is ludicrous that as an Island Nation we have no control of our borders. The sad fact is, the current state of affairs is deliberate policy and if it is accidental, then never before has such an inept bunch of shysters managed to gain power.

    I despair at what is happening to our country.
  5. The fact we are an island nation I fear is irrelevant. The fact is our social system is far too generous and as such we are the soft touch for spongers. Despite our best efforts they will always find a way in to abuse the system.
  6. Well written and well presented, shame our incumbent bunch of feckwits can't wake up & smell the coffee :x
  7. Then we must change the system.
  8. Great article.

    I often wondered why our politicos keep saying immigration is essential to a strong economy when Japan, with an immigration rate of aprox 0%, is one of the most dynamic economies on the planet!
  9. I often wonder why they still try to justify it despite the evidence:

    Fiction: We need workers to fill vacancies.

    Fact: Over a Million and a Half officially unemployed. many of these unemployed are in minority areas so why add to this deprivation?

    Fiction: We need workers for the NHS

    Fact: NHS Trusts are in debt (As a direct consequence of health tourism and increased demand) result NHS Staff laid off to join the growing unemployment figures.

    Fiction: We need immigration to enrich our culture.

    Fact: Look at the demographics of the prison population and the true demographics of racially motivated crime.

    Chuck in the pressure on housing and water and wages and we have a recipe for disaster.
  10. Well we have a clear choice of patience for a strong oposition likely of gaining power or a coup d'etat. Despite the obvious advantages and the enormous fun along the way i think we will have to wait for our blue fringed freinds.
  11. And one of the most racist cultures on the planet to boot.

    Where the hell have you been for the last ten years? True things are starting to pick up again now, they've had real problems getting the economy going again. Unemployment is double what it was in the early 1990s.

    I think the article mentioned is only supported here because it does two things that Torygraph fans and people like Herrenblo... Warrior_Poet enjoy doing: a) beating up on foreign people and b) giving the government a good kicking. (Not that I have a problem with giving HMG a good kicking, but let's do it properly.)

    If you look at the arguments presented, they are the arguments of the Old Left. Immigration causes downward pressure on wages, pricing indigenous workers out of the market. When coupled with the notion that many inidiginous workers lack the skills or the work ethic of their foreign competitor, what businessman would choose to employ a British worker over an immigrant? Let's use the Polish plumber analogy, would you rather hand over your cash to someone who knew the job, got it done in less time and at a lower cost, or would you rather employ a cowboy?

    As regards the idea that immigrants themselves become consumers and thus create demand for more jobs. This is what's known as economic growth and, as far as I am aware, is generally considered to be a good thing.

    The next thing our author does is point out that "trickledown" doesn't work. A fair point, well put- it doesn't. One only needs to look at the growing disparity between rich and poor in the US since Reaganomics first came to the fore to see that.

    My point is this, the immigrants are not to blame and neither is the government. What is to blame is the very nature of the global capitalist system. Sure, you can close the border to immigrants, but the long term effect will be a decline in competitiveness of British goods and services in the international and domestic markets. The balance of trade will be thrown way off keel and wage inflation will only exacerbate this downward spiral. Those businesses that do manage to stay afloat will face pressure to relocate overseas as wages inflate, tax burdens rise and rates of interest go skywards as the government welfare payments go through the roof while tax revenues go down.

    As I see it, there are two ways out of this- a Communist system (and we all know what happened the last time that was tried) to redistribute the wealth (from each according to their abilities to each according to their needs) or we learn to survive in the capitalist system where we will rise or fall by our skill in innovation and the ability to produce superior goods and services (and yes, Viper, that's where the Japanese come really come into their own, not because they don't let foreigners in). We cannot afford to eschew the benefits of cheap labour or artificially raise wages by restricting the movement of labour. Standards of living etc. will improve when we succeed.

    Of course, this does require some government intervention- not least ensuring that the British people have the required skill sets to play a role. This runs the spectrum from trade training, to fostering business skills and entrepreneurship.

    And yes, immigrants can play a role in this too. As I have mentioned before they have a long history of it. for example:

    · The Bank of England is anything but English in origin. It was set up in 1694 on the model of the Bank of Holland, and its first governor was Sir John Houblon, a Dutch Walloon.

    · You may think that a Savile Row suit is a quintessentially English luxury. However, fine tailoring was initiated in England in the 16th century by the Dutch Walloons and refined by the French Huguenots.

    · Jews fleeing Eastern Europe in the late 19th century started businesses that have become high street names, such as Marks & Spencer, Waitrose, Sainsbury’s and Tesco.

    · We have the son of a Hungarian immigrant to thank for our Odeon cinemas - in 1928, his ‘palaces for the people’ hit the high street.

    · In about 1720, Lord Pembroke smuggled Huguenot craftsmen from France in empty wine casks in order to use their weaving skills at the Wilton carpet factory. Wilton is still a carpet-making centre and descendants of the original Huguenots live in nearby Dorset.

    · Over 66% of independently-owned ‘corner shops’ are run and owned by people whose families are from another country.

    · In 1750, when the slave trade was at its height, one in 20 Londoners was black. Due to the number of multiracial marriages and children in the 18th century, it is probable that many of us have a black ancestor in our genealogy.

    · More than 95% of the people who call themselves English are, in fact, descended from foreign immigrants.

    · Genetic research shows that the Y-chromosomes of the majority of British males are as ethnically Germanic as you can get.

    (Source: Eddie Izzard's Mongrel Nation)
  12. crabtastic wrote:

    Genetic research shows that the Y-chromosomes of the majority of British males are as ethnically Germanic as you can get.

    Uhmmm which confirms the Anglo Saxons as a specific race and not a mongrel race as certain senior New Labour politicians tried to state.

    Crabtastic, the current disgraceful state of affairs in this country is as a direct consequence of trendy left wing social theories and unilateral political decisions that are completely at odds with the wishes of the British people.

    Where in the Labour manifesto did it state "Open Door Immigration Policy"? When were the People asked if they wanted to be members of a federal Europe as opposed to a mere trading block? When were the people of the UK ever asked?
  13. W_P if you're from the North-East as your avatar suggests, you've probably got some Viking in there too.

    Now, the main thrust of my post is that immigration, as unpleasant to you as it may be, is a fact that we are going to have to live with because the alternative is much, much worse.
  14. Goatman

    Goatman LE Book Reviewer

    Just got back from a visit to Oireland (bejasus, is it yerself that's talkin' ?)

    Re Poles in UK, I was quite struck that there are an estimated 200,000 of them living in the Emerald Isle too.....practically every barmaid and night porter in the place appears to be from Krakow or Gdynia rather than it's not just the bright lights of London Town that draw them over.

    ( cripes...slightly non-plussed to find that Poles now make up about a fifth of the local population in Southampton....must find out what the Polish for 'Scummer' is.....)

    Dowidzenia !

    Koza Człowiek
  15. Who is not to blame if not for the government? They disbanded any border controls after getting into power - not that the Tories had many.

    It is no good using analogies back to the 1700's either. Immigration was needed when the country was sparsely populated, not a present when there is insufficient housing and jobs.

    Also I have no problems with Polish plumbers - they are skilled workers. What I do object to and find totally implausible to our situation is to allow loads of unskilled non- English speaking nationals into our country simply to go on benefit. That is not counting the amount of illegals on top.

    In addition the govt actually allows so many every year from India, Pakistan, Nigeria etc under a quota system to join relatives here - usually ones that are dependents, not workers.

    Our home education system is in crisis with kids leaving school barely literate with English O and A Levels, there are few apprenticeships around and the majority of jobs are either Service industry (low paid), IT (half of our people unqualified) or call centres (jobs being transferred abroad for profit). There is, of course the Civil service and local govt which are the only 2 growth areas but these are non-jobs as they are paid out of taxes.

    We are in an economic community that affords protection to their own nationals yet Britain does not. I know protectionism caused the problems in the 30's but you do not become competitive by destroying or selling off home industries in the expectation of new jobs that are not long term and can be relocated as soon as the subsidies dry up.

    The following needs to be done urgently. No immigration of unskilled workers, regardless of origin - we have more than enough of our own. A complete block on over 55's with no income or savings - these just increase our pension population and end up getting a pension off DSS without paying anything in.

    No immigrants from third world countries, especially those outside the Commonwealth and any with large families.

    We need workers to expand the economy not extra mouths and families to add to the housing list.

    If immigration is handled logically and balanced like Australia, Canada, NZ and US then we might have a chance at integration and not the ghettoes that are in our cities and towns at present.

    The latest home office guesstimate is 450,000 illegals which it proposes to sort out by 2014. Are they going to seal off the country between now and then? Are they b#####ks. So how many others are going to come in in the next 7 years?

    The system is unmanageable and nobody has a clue what to do but what they don't want to do is risk losing votes or be called with the R word.

    We'll just bimble along blindly until one day there is an almighty backlash and this country will be the worse off for it, all donw to gutless politicians :roll:

    Rant over