If this is the third world war, we’re losing

#2
I found this article simplistic.

"That said, there are some things worth defending: democracy and liberal values. And yes, Israel shares them".

If the Israelis have a liberal side they certainly keep it well hidden. The author bangs on about Islamo-fascists but there is little analysis of Judo-christian fascism which is equally damaging.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#3
729? I'll make a point in buying anything with those three digits next time I'm out shopping with the wife.
 
#6
Letterwritingman said:
:D Toda Raba Jaques...my Pounds will go there in future. :D
Mine won't and have not been going there for some time, not until there is real progress towards giving the Palestinians the future they have been denied for that last 50 years.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#7
Jacques_Bustard said:
Letterwritingman said:
:D Toda Raba Jaques...my Pounds will go there in future. :D
Mine won't and have not been going there for some time, not until there is real progress towards giving the Palestinians the future they have been denied for that last 50 years.
That's very noble of you. Like any of us give a sh*t? Pleb.
 
#10
Jacques_Bustard said:
Arik said:
Jacques_Bustard said:
.....If the Israelis have a liberal side they certainly keep it well hidden. ....
Or perhaps you do not wish to see it?
30 dead children in Qana this evening speaks for itself
Tell me, did you get this worked up when hundreds of Israeli civilians were being blown to pieces on buses or in cafés by Palestinian 'militants'?
 
#12
gallowglass said:
Jacques_Bustard said:
Arik said:
Jacques_Bustard said:
.....If the Israelis have a liberal side they certainly keep it well hidden. ....
Or perhaps you do not wish to see it?
30 dead children in Qana this evening speaks for itself
Tell me, did you get this worked up when hundreds of Israeli civilians were being blown to pieces on buses or in cafés by Palestinian 'militants'?
Well, if we're going to play the body count game, the Israelis have killed around four Palestinians for every Israeli and in the current escapade the ratio is over 10 to 1.
 
#13
crabtastic said:
gallowglass said:
Jacques_Bustard said:
Arik said:
Jacques_Bustard said:
.....If the Israelis have a liberal side they certainly keep it well hidden. ....
Or perhaps you do not wish to see it?
30 dead children in Qana this evening speaks for itself
Tell me, did you get this worked up when hundreds of Israeli civilians were being blown to pieces on buses or in cafés by Palestinian 'militants'?
Well, if we're going to play the body count game, the Israelis have killed around four Palestinians for every Israeli and in the current escapade the ratio is over 10 to 1.
In my defence, I don't believe that I was indulging in the 'body count game'; rather, I made my posting as I find much of the moral outrage being trotted out here as utterly imbalanced. Quite simply, it strikes me that many posters on here - reflecting the views of a great number of people in the West, I feel - seem either unaware or unconcerned by Israeli deaths. Those who keep harping on about Israel's 'disproportionate response' (someone really should define 'proportionate' in the Middle East context...) are by implication playing the body count game.
 
#14
Yes the sight of Israeli civilians blown to pieces by suicide bombers is just as sickening as the scenes from Qana over the last 24 hours. This violence has been going on virtually unchecked since 1948. Many western governments, notably the US and the UK turn a blind eye to the worst excesses of the IDF and yet our leaders bang on about freedom, democracy and rights. These things have been denied to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians for decades and it is little wonder that we are labelled as hypocrites by many in the Middle East. If I thought by buying Palestinian goods I was in some helping in the current slaughter I’d put an avatar up about that. But when was the last time you saw “made in Palestine” on the labels in your local supermarket? The truth is you won’t. As a people they have been systematically shafted for 50 years and the current violence will do nothing to tackle the fundamental causes of the conflict. 1.4 million of them are confined to the Gaza strip where the Israelis control their airspace, territorial waters and land borders. Unemployment is rife and the future for them is bleak. The Israelis spent years undermining Yasser Arafat and (with George Bush) telling the rest of the world that he was the problem. Well he’s gone but is the situation any different? If anything it’s worse. Now it’s Hamas who are the political movers in Gaza, they appear to be even more militant than Arafat’s lot.

The Israelis invaded Lebanon in 1982 and went all the way to Beirut forcing the PLO to flee. Twenty four years later it’s Hezbollah who are the problem, it’s the same thing but with a different name. If the past is anything to go by this campaign will achieve nothing in the long term. Meanwhile in his cave in Afghanistan Osama Bin Ladin is pissing himself laughing as the Israelis, the Americans and the British have provided al Qaida with the best recruiting campaign he’s had since March 2003. We are making a series of strategic and tactical blunders which only serve to prolong conflict not bring it to a conclusion. Our leaders are not leading, they are bound in dogma and locking whole generations into a future of conflict and bloodshed.
 
#15
What about the thousands of Iraqi civilians who have been killed by the US and ourselves by missiles, bombs and bullets that have been directed at civilian areas because 'intelligence' indicated that there was an insurgent in the building or a rocket launch system in the area?
Who is supplying Israel with its munitions?
Are you also boycotting goods made in the US and GB?

Probably not, double standards are great arent they? :roll:
 
#16
Filbert Fox said:
What about the thousands of Iraqi civilians who have been killed by the US and ourselves by missiles, bombs and bullets that have been directed at civilian areas because 'intelligence' indicated that there was an insurgent in the building or a rocket launch system in the area?
Who is supplying Israel with its munitions?
Are you also boycotting goods made in the US and GB?

Probably not, double standards are great arent they? :roll:
I agree with Filbert on this one. The only reason GB and the US are not condemning these attacks by Israel is because not only are they making a lot of money from selling the ammunitions; they also know a lot of the attacks in Iraq have been disproportionate (if they could ever prove it was pre-emptive) and they have targeted civillians. Oh yeah and how can Dubya bang on about humanitarian rights when guantanamo is still open................

The UN a 'paper tiger' never! Well it isn't when it suits us to use it
 
#17
Filbert Fox said:
What about the thousands of Iraqi civilians who have been killed by the US and ourselves by missiles, bombs and bullets that have been directed at civilian areas because 'intelligence' indicated that there was an insurgent in the building or a rocket launch system in the area?
Who is supplying Israel with its munitions?
Are you also boycotting goods made in the US and GB?

Probably not, double standards are great arent they? :roll:
Lets not forget who is supposedly supplying Hizbollah with its medium range rockets. I don't think the Iranians are doing just for the hell of it. Plus I hear that Hizbollah has created a number of free hospitals and schools in southern Lebanaon to secure their political footing - duty rumour is that this is also funded by Iran and other donations and charities. I tell you, if Iran exported anything other than hatred and grils with big noses, i'd boycott them!

Hmm.

So it really does seem as though the US and Iran are having their little war in another country? I don't believe it!

On a serious note, the conflict, like all others, does take innocent lives. As a father it does pull at my heart strings when you see children amongst the dead. Not Ogrish or anything like that, its a Hizbollah news network, but does show children dead so be warned.

It is eay to see how propoganda can work on both sides. As already mentioned, when a Palestinean blows up a bus and kills innocent people - including children - I wonder what the live is from the otherside? Maybe Jacques can enlighten me?
 
#18
Actually, do Hizbollah target civilians?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hizballah.htm

Once established as a militia, Hizbollah received acclaim and legitimacy in Lebanon and throughout the Muslim world by fighting against IDF and SLA troops. In fact, since 1988 Hizbollah replaced Amal (the other prominent Shi'ite organization in Lebanon) as the predominant force due to its activity against Israel. Over the years Hizbollah military operations have grown to include attacking IDF and SLA outposts, ambushing convoys, laying explosive devices booby-trapping cars, and launching long range mortar shells and Katyusha rockets at IDF outposts and into Israel proper.

Between the spring of 1983 to the summer of 1985 the Hizballah launched an unprecedented wave of suicide bombings which included an attack on the US embassy and at a US Marine base in Beirut. Known or suspected to have been involved in numerous anti-US terrorist attacks, including the suicide truck bombing of the US Embassy and US Marine barracks in Beirut in October 1983 and the US Embassy Annex in Beirut in September 1984. Elements of the group were responsible for the kidnapping and detention of US and other Western hostages in Lebanon. The group also attacked the Israeli Embassy in Argentina in 1992.
I know they are randonly chucking rockets in to Israel, but . . . . . .
 
#19
crabtastic said:
Well, if we're going to play the body count game, the Israelis have killed around four Palestinians for every Israeli and in the current escapade the ratio is over 10 to 1.
I see you're still using that big hat full of numbers Crabs.
 
#20
gallowglass said:
crabtastic said:
gallowglass said:
Jacques_Bustard said:
Arik said:
Jacques_Bustard said:
.....If the Israelis have a liberal side they certainly keep it well hidden. ....
Or perhaps you do not wish to see it?
30 dead children in Qana this evening speaks for itself
Tell me, did you get this worked up when hundreds of Israeli civilians were being blown to pieces on buses or in cafés by Palestinian 'militants'?
Well, if we're going to play the body count game, the Israelis have killed around four Palestinians for every Israeli and in the current escapade the ratio is over 10 to 1.
In my defence, I don't believe that I was indulging in the 'body count game'; rather, I made my posting as I find much of the moral outrage being trotted out here as utterly imbalanced. Quite simply, it strikes me that many posters on here - reflecting the views of a great number of people in the West, I feel - seem either unaware or unconcerned by Israeli deaths. Those who keep harping on about Israel's 'disproportionate response' (someone really should define 'proportionate' in the Middle East context...) are by implication playing the body count game.
Gallowglass, I'm with you on this. I find the "news" somewhat biased in its reporting and painting Lebanon as the victim in this. Absolute sh1t, if you look back it was the Hizbollah who initiated this and continue to fire rockes from within civilian areas. If they [CivPop] want it to stop, either move out and leave the Hizbollah out in the open or expose them to the UN authorities.

Of course My Humble Opinion.
 
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