If Labour win the election is a Communist UK a real possibility and how would it happen?

lecky

War Hero
The point there is that she sees such thinking is reasonable - and I'd hazard that she's not open to debate, is she?
Bang on. One of those who think's she is so right, that she can't believe anyone would think her wrong.
She has so much self confidence in her beliefs, that when her model theories don't stand up in the court of office opinion, she chooses to suspend disbelief and instead will poor doubt on everyone else's experiences, conclusions and subject knowledge, that have just demonstrably smashed her theories.
Still, that's an improvement on what she used to reply with...usually some derogatory political label.
 

lecky

War Hero
I do share her apparant antipathy towards the Party system and dissatisfaction with it does seem to be coming more to the fore.

Selecting members of the public by ballot is called sortition: Have a dekko at below if you're interested:

  1. Sortition: Government by Jury
  2. 10 reasons why Sortition is better than Elections
  3. The Fetura or Sortition Option
I'm a big fan and would really like to see it trialled somewhere (NI?)
First impressions: I have a gut feeling it might work at a micro level of "Government" where the general public can draw on some local experiential learning to bring to decision making.
Not sure it could work at a National level? Might need a few more subject specialists in "tougher" fields to avoid some potential disasters? It's right there where I see a possibility for the " New Elite" to self appoint and subvert democracy whilst perverting the Sortition Process. I think it's that which she has seized upon when she talks about her " how to think " courses. I suspect they are a filter for those randomly chosen members of the public, to see who is more agreeable with the ideas and ambitions of the Elite, rather than some sort of preparation for conversing with the Nations Leaders?.
The danger for me is it looks like a reasonable alternative to Democracy, but it'll end up being an easy cover to maintain for an Elite Committee to self select and not be seriously challenged
 
I knows it’s the daily express but there is commentary from an election analyst on there that Corbyn May pull it off with support from other parties. His government wouldn’t be viable as it would have the same problems as the Tories with rebellious MPs or ‘partners’, but if he makes it, he may we’ll get a second referendum away. That’s the latest from the Express tonight..
 

JCC

LE
I didn't know it was called 'Sortition', so I learned something there. As we were taught at school, there were some of the ancient Greek societies/states that governed by this method. People (Adult men) were randomly selected to serve in the assembly, with representative numbers of different professions and areas. Some carpenters, some fishermen, some merchants etc. This was wide open to manipulation by the powers that be, a feature that still pervades elements of Greek society today. Only a couple of years ago I was talking to a Greek Colonel, who was amazed that the British military was politically agnostic, as careers, appointments and promotion in their forces have a strong element of being of the correct political affiliation. Then again, that could be because they also have had recent experience of military government.

Unfortunately all systems are corruptible. All that can be done is to make things as transparent as possible.

One of the major problems with Western Representative Democracy is the lobby which injects secret corruption into the heart of a government.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
Labour's Manifesto for upcoming General Election published today.

Here's the single page they think Defence of the Realm is worth. Check out the vote catching appeal to various self-interest groups:

DEFENCE AND SECURITY A NEW INTERNATIONALISM 101

The primary duty of government is to guarantee the security of people in the UK. Labour’s defence policy will be strategic and evidence-led. Our security at home is made stronger when the security of others elsewhere is guaranteed too.

An incoming Labour government will undertake a Strategic Defence and Security Review to assess the security challenges facing Britain, including new forms of hybrid, cyber and remote warfare. This review will also take account of the climate emergency, and associated threats of resource competition, involuntary migration and violent conflict.

Under the Conservatives: • Boris Johnson refuses to publish the report into possible foreign interference by Russia in UK democracy. • Trained army personnel have been cut from 102,000 to just over 74,000. • Armed forces and their families have been forced to live in sub-standard accommodation. • Failing outsourced contracts have not been terminated.

Our Armed Forces personnel received below-inflation pay rises for seven years. The security challenges we face know no borders. Labour will increase funding for UN peacekeeping operations to £100 million. We will maintain our commitment to NATO and our close relationship with our European partners, and we will use our influence at the United Nations to support peace and security worldwide. Labour supports the renewal of the Trident nuclear deterrent. Labour will also actively lead multilateral efforts under our obligations to the Non-Proliferation Treaty to create a nuclear-free world. Labour’s commitment to spend at least 2% of GDP on defence will guarantee that our armed forces are versatile and capable of fulfilling the full range of roles and obligations.

We will scrap the public sector pay cap, which resulted in a real-terms pay cut for our armed forces, ensure decent housing for forces members and their families, and guarantee better access for all forces children to good quality local schools. We will consult on creating a representative body for the armed forces, akin to the Police Federation.

Labour will improve opportunities for veterans through access to lifelong learning and training, housing and mental and physical health services, and will seek greater consistency in the implementation of the Armed Forces Covenant by public authorities. We will pay a lump sum of £50,000 to each surviving British nuclear-test veteran to support them and their families with the health conditions they have suffered as a result of exposure to radiation.

We will also ensure that black and Asian soldiers who fought in Britain’s colonial armies receive a full apology and explore ways to compensate them for the discriminatory demob payments they received compared to their white counterparts serving at the same rank in the same regiments.

The UK defence industry is world-leading and Labour will continue to work with manufacturers, unions and export partners in line with Labour’s foreign policy to support innovation in this sector to ensure it maintains its highly skilled workforce and world-class apprenticeship programme. We are committed to procurement that supports UK defence manufacturing including our aerospace and shipbuilding, alongside a vibrant supply chain that includes the British steel industry and other component manufacturing companies providing good jobs throughout supply chains.

Labour will publish a Defence Industrial Strategy White Paper, including a National Shipbuilding Strategy, that keeps all Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary shipbuilding contracts in the UK, to secure a long-term future for the industry and its workers.

Reducing our carbon footprint can only happen with ambitious emissions reduction targets at the Ministry of Defence, one of government’s biggest energy users. So as part of our Green Industrial Revolution, we will create a Climate Change Sustainability Committee within the department to review the feasibility of increasing the use of sustainable energy in defence, and publish a strategy to accelerate the safe and sustainable
recycling of our old nuclear submarines.


For the broad-minded and strong of stomach here's a link to the full gorgeous 107 pages : LINKY
 

sirbhp

LE
Book Reviewer
i think that we wouldneed to ask Boris and his mates about this , they seem to have all the russian contacts .
 
Just reading the manifesto highlights on the Torygraph news feed. If this lot gets in I may as well go on the dole
 

Johned

War Hero
In the dire event of a Corbyn led Labour government with the Stalinist McDonnell pulling the strings, I would hope behind the scenes there is some secret august all powerful body higher than a social strata even imaginable to most of us, which would take those gentlemen aside and quietly say "You can spout your Marxist rhetoric all you like boys and play about with your silly Lefty politics, it amuses students and spotty teenagers but don't rock the boat too much will you?" Followed by brief and oblique allusions to just what might happen if that discreet advice came to be ignored.
 

holyphuc

Old-Salt
I'm beginning to think he might get in, a few younger people I know say that they will vote for him, they're in their 30's so they don't remember the 70's strikes, blackouts, dead unburied etc.
Would it be so bad? I can't see his government lasting more than a year, and if the pound crashes I can pay off my mortgage with a couple of weeks work.
 

anglo

LE
I'm beginning to think he might get in, a few younger people I know say that they will vote for him, they're in their 30's so they don't remember the 70's strikes, blackouts, dead unburied etc.
Would it be so bad? I can't see his government lasting more than a year, and if the pound crashes I can pay off my mortgage with a couple of weeks work.
You won't have any work, any way your house will be nationalized
 
Labour has a slight problem. A large percentage of their supporters voted for LEAVE. They are pissed off.

The recent EU elections showed a huge swing of support to the Brexit Party. That alone should have alerted politicians of all parties, that right now that may well be the most decisive factor.

Election manifestos in general tend to be airy promises, and there is a faint hope that the young, having been gulled once on Labour's promises to abolish Uni debts and fees, might just be a little more sceptical this time round.
 
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Link to Panorama programme Monday 25th November. Here is the communist utopia Labour head shed admires.

BBC One - Panorama, How to Brainwash a Million People

No escapes, constant surveillance and forced confessions: Panorama reveals how China runs its re-education camps. More than a million people have been locked up. It's one of the biggest mass detentions in modern history. Reporter Richard Bilton uncovers the reality of surveillance and abuse inside hundreds of new detention centres.
 

MrDave

War Hero
I'm more worried about us becoming an Islamic country rather than a communist one. I could wear the chairman mao suit, but there is no way I am going teetotal. Communism and Islam share a lot of the same traits but saying that the UK will turn into a communist country under Corbyn is like saying the UK will turn into a fascist country under the conservatives. UK plc will carry on no matter who is in charge and the only thing that ever changes is which people get the money!
 
"The inherent vice of Capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.
"The inherent virtue of Socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

Winston Churchill in the House of Commons.
 
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