If I wanted loonies in government, I'd have voted Labour

[Joker62]

Here look


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I see what you're saying but, using your top example, "any other leading to 1a", having cancer/Covid/ingrowing toenail will not be a cause of you getting squashed by Sadiq Khan's dad in a big red thing (colours may vary by town/city), that why the death cert needs to state "died of" if Covid is the cause, not of "testing positive within 28 days" if it had sod all to do with the death. Having Covid will have nothing to do with the death if hit by a bus/a building collapses on top of you/get mauled by next door's Rottweiler.

 

[lastwalt]

I see what you're saying but, using your top example, "any other leading to 1a", having cancer/Covid/ingrowing toenail will not be a cause of you getting squashed by Sadiq Khan's dad in a big red thing (colours may vary by town/city), that why the death cert needs to state "died of" if Covid is the cause, not of "testing positive within 28 days" if it had sod all to do with the death. Having Covid will have nothing to do with the death if hit by a bus/a building collapses on top of you/get mauled by next door's Rottweiler.

Deaths registered weekly in England and Wales, provisional - Office for National Statistics

Provisional counts of the number of deaths registered in England and Wales, including deaths involving the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, by age, sex and region.

www.ons.gov.uk

- In Week 46, the number of deaths registered was 18.4% above the five-year average (1,904 deaths higher).
- Of the deaths registered in Week 46, 2,466 mentioned “novel coronavirus (COVID-19)”, accounting for 20.1% of all deaths in England and Wales;

The above two statements appear in the ONS release linked to above. Note that the second statement is referring to deaths with COVID mentioned on the death certificate, not deaths within 28 days of a positive test - the former normally being a larger number than the latter.

 

[BuckFelize]

'I shall keep this brief. The time has come to end all restrictions. Despite the best advice and the efforts of thousands the virus continues to survive. So must this nation. The economic damage it is being subjected to cannot be sustained, either short or long term.

'I am determined not to let this country be destroyed. It is a great country - despite what some think. Therefore a decision has been reached. It is not within the government's remit to micro-manage businesses, families and individuals.

'We have tried... in the best interests of all. It was a decision that was not undertaken lightly - totalitarian and draconian measures do not sit easily with us. Unfortunately, it has not worked. Such is life and nature. Humanity - despite its science and technology - does not always have all the answers.

'Within living memory, this country and its allies sent thousands to their deaths in order that the lifestyles and freedoms to which they cherished could continue for the greater good. The needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few. They persevered and prevailed. So shall we.

'The individual will thus take upon it themselves to act sensibly within the guidelines that are already familiar to millions. Maintain personal hygiene and think of others. Wear a mask if you wish. That's it! Many will die, most will not. This disease is not Ebola. We will succeed. Vaccines are on the way and they will help the fight. It's now down to you all. Good luck.'

There you go Boris. Sorted. Say that at 5pm and you're off the hook. Open the boozers. Happy Christmas!

 

[jarrod248]

I see what you're saying but, using your top example, "any other leading to 1a", having cancer/Covid/ingrowing toenail will not be a cause of you getting squashed by Sadiq Khan's dad in a big red thing (colours may vary by town/city), that why the death cert needs to state "died of" if Covid is the cause, not of "testing positive within 28 days" if it had sod all to do with the death. Having Covid will have nothing to do with the death if hit by a bus/a building collapses on top of you/get mauled by next door's Rottweiler.

Sec 2 covers other diseases.

 

[velcrostripes]

Boris is operating with the best intentions, and compared to that Dragon Theresa May's time in office I know who I would rather have in No10, its Boris every time. However he has made some fundamental errors.

1. His Cabinet team are mostly a bunch of chancers and wasters, Jenrick (of questionable honesty) who couldn't make up his mind where his main household is in Lockdown 1. Gove, who is as slimy as a slippery eel in vaseline, Hancock, who never answers a question about anything, Shapps who as Transport Secretary has allowed the clogging of vital arteries in our cities to allow a couple of cyclists to have a clear pathway on their way to work, even when they can and do work from home.
2. Boris has failed to appoint a deputy (even when under ventilation for Covid) allowing a vacuum in leadership becoming free for all to take place amongst his cabinet colleagues for a number of weeks, More recently he has been in isolation trying to run the country from No10 with questionable connectivity to Parliament. This has been a major error on Boris' part.
3. His decisions on major capital projects like HS2, more taxpayers hard earned being spent on knocking this country's heartlands apart, despite his "Green" agenda.
4. His "green" policies which seem to move forward by 5 years every 2 months.

I was a Boris supporter, I have to say that a year on under his leadership I doubt I would be a supporter in future elections.

You're absolutely right ....
Huge working majority being wasted playing to too many galleries , most of which wouldn't be converted to the Conservative cause if you put a gun to their heads .
Whilst I support some of the green agenda , from the point of view that I would prefer free wind energy over gas from the Russians or oil from the Arabs , I do not see the point in closing lanes for bicycles .There are no votes in the green agenda .
If I were them , I would get Brexit finished ASAP , normalise trade and tourism with Europe on our terms , get the country back to work and manage this huge pile of debt as carefully as possible , " It's the economy ,stupid " has always been the phrase to watch when elections loom .

 

[dombo63]

Maybe a better example of the above. You get killed by a bus, post mortem discovers your tonsillitis is throat cancer.

But if post mortem shows covid, you'll be going on Whitty's covid-death tally, same as mentioned above where you die of any cause within 28 days of a test

 

[Joker62]

But if post mortem shows covid, you'll be going on Whitty's covid-death tally, same as mentioned above where you die of any cause within 28 days of a test

Which is what I've been saying all along.

 

[jarrod248]

Which is what I've been saying all along.

Doesn’t mean you’re right though, you aren’t.

 

[TheSockPuppet]

That makes the assumption that doctors are lying on death certificates and I’ve not seen any examples of that.

That isn't what I said. I said that people who are certified as dying WITH COVID (as per what you have shown with the certification) are being presented statistically as having died FROM COVID.

This means that the example of someone being hit by a bus who also had COVID is being presented to the public as another victim of COVID.

Which is where the political arm of the NHS comes in - it is very much in their interest to scaremonger about COVID as much as possible - a public terrified of a virus means more funding for the NHS.

 

[Joker62]

Doesn’t mean you’re right though, you aren’t.

You're saying that all the figures showing deaths within 28 days of testing positive should be shown on the breifing as actual Covid deaths even if Covid wan't actual cause of death, as I said it's a misleading figure.

 

[jarrod248]

You're saying that all the figures showing deaths within 28 days of testing positive should be shown on the breifing as actual Covid deaths even if Covid wan't actual cause of death, as I said it's a misleading figure.

No I’m saying the cause of death goes on the certificate as the cause of death. Any associated condition can be added also.

 

[jarrod248]

That isn't what I said. I said that people who are certified as dying WITH COVID (as per what you have shown with the certification) are being presented statistically as having died FROM COVID.

This means that the example of someone being hit by a bus who also had COVID is being presented to the public as another victim of COVID.

Which is where the political arm of the NHS comes in - it is very much in their interest to scaremonger about COVID as much as possible - a public terrified of a virus means more funding for the NHS.

Why would someone hit by a bus be a Covid death? Political arm of the NHS? Where is that department? The Doctors write the certificates based to the best of their knowledge what the cause(s) of death was.

 

[Joker62]

No I’m saying the cause of death goes on the certificate as the cause of death. Any associated condition can be added also.

Covid is not an associated condition to being hit by a bus/being trampled to death by a horde of spiny anteaters. I have Diabetes and a heart condition, should they be mentioned if they had the absolute square root of fcukall to do with me dying by other means? If the answer is No, then why is a positive test within 28 days being used as the go-to figure for PHE and SAGE when it comes to death statistics, not every death is caused by Covid. As I said earlier there's "dying of" which should be recorded as Covid death, "dying with" and "dying" which shouldn't be included in the Covid death figures.

 

[jarrod248]

Covid is not an associated condition to being hit by a bus/being trampled to death by a horde of spiny anteaters. I have Diabetes and a heart condition, should they be mentioned if they had the absolute square root of fcukall to do with me dying by other means? If the answer is No, then why is a positive test within 28 days being used as the go-to figure for PHE and SAGE when it comes to death statistics, not every death is caused by Covid. As I said earlier there's "dying of" which should be recorded as Covid death, "dying with" and "dying" which shouldn't be included in the Covid death figures.

If you died it’s likely heart disease and diabetes would also be on death certificate, not necessarily because of ant eaters. I think you’re trying to say Covid is being recorded incorrectly and I’ve seen no evidence.

 

[Joker62]

If you died it’s likely heart disease and diabetes would also be on death certificate, not necessarily because of ant eaters. I think you’re trying to say Covid is being recorded incorrectly and I’ve seen no evidence.

If you've tested positive in teh past 28 days, have no symptoms but die by stabbing, should that come under the Covid deaths even though Covid isn't the cause or other deaths?

 

[jarrod248]

If you've tested positive in teh past 28 days, have no symptoms but die by stabbing, should that come under the Covid deaths even though Covid isn't the cause or other deaths?

Good thinking we can stab anyone if they have it and get away Scot free, cool.

 

[jarrod248]

@Joker62 would you like me to tell you how to cook an egg?

 

[StormsInAfrica]

Condolences.

Thankyou.

 

[Joker62]

@Joker62 would you like me to tell you how to cook an egg?

Why would I want you to do that? All I'm saying is that a death by any other cause shouldn't be classed as a Covid death just because they've tested positve in the past 28 days, only those that have died of Covid should.

 

[jarrod248]

Why would I want you to do that? All I'm saying is that a death by any other cause shouldn't be classed as a Covid death just because they've tested positve in the past 28 days, only those that have died of Covid should.

Fantastic so we agree then.