IDF shoot 60-2,000 wounded.

...the Palestinians have a very simple solution, sit down and negotiate with Israel and work a solution out...
There were fruitless negotiations during decades. Further attempts are just waste of time. Israelis regards Jerusalem as their indidivible capital while the Palestinians regard East Jerusalem as their future capital. So any future negotiations are senseless.
The Palestinians haven't any viable option. They are forgotten by the international community. Rich Gulf countries have own problems. Egypt, Jordan prefer to be rather neutral.
... rather than refuse to and continue with the rhetoric of killing every Jew and wiping Israel off the map.
Official positon of the Palestinian authorities is clear. They agree with 2 state solution with 1967 border and East Jerusalem as their capital. As I'm aware HMG also support this solution at least its principal points. But Washington supports Israeli position. It blocks the very possibility of international ME conference.
Let's ask ourselves - could parties in the Bosnian war reach any solution? No of course, the war would be endless. Solution was elaborated by the West (namely by Washington). The Serbs had to left Sarayevo but have about a half of territory as their authonomy statelet.

I see only one way - international ME conference that elaborates fair solution that both sides would have to accept.
But it will not happen any time soon.
 
Part of the problem is that Israel hasn't, to my knowledge, ever said "here's a map showing what we'd accept as a final settlement, please countersign and we'll all live in peace".

Indeed, Israel feels it has the right to redraw the map as it sees fit in spite of internaltional law and countless UN resolutions.
On 2 occasions 2000 Ish Clinton negotiations and 2009 Israel offered to withdraw to 67 Borders -remove settlements and in 2009 agreed to split Jerusalem Demographically.

In 2000 Arafat dismissed these Israeli concessions out of hand - didn't attempt a counter offer and lanched the 2nd Intifada - Even the Arabs couldn't believe it

In 2009 Hamas rejected it and started their next rocket campaign.

I would contend that in both cases the Israelis signing up to a peace plan embodying territorial claims and borders is them accepting a Geographical state of Israel.
 
I wonder why the Israelis get pissed off with the Palestinians?

2000-2005, 731 Israeli civilians and 332 members of the Israeli security services killed
 
Your choice of words does you great discredit.
It's true though, which really upsets you


Child host: “OK, so what does a policeman do?”
Nahul (adult in giant bee costume): “He catches thieves, and people who make trouble.”
Child host: “And shoots Jews. Right?”
Girl: “Yes.”
Child host: “You want to be like him?”
[Girl nods]
Child host: “Allah willing, when you grow up.”
Girl: “So that I can shoot Jews.”
[Nahul the bee cheers]
Child host: “All of them? All of them?”
Girl: “Yes.”
Child host: “Good.”
 
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Ive seen a lot of these Palestinian TV clips

If true they demonstrate horrific brainwashing of the kids all speak about Jews as evil and include songs about killing them etc. Its an absolute diet of propaganda intended to feed the youths into the next wave of the cause.

Of course its a big If - because the only understanding I have of whats being said is from the subtitles and to be frank that could equally be anti Palestinian propaganda and not reflect whats actually being said
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
Only if 53 out of 60 of them confirmed Hamas members armed with knives trying to breach the fence constitutes your idea of what "unarmed civilians" are.
That would be non-military personnel without apparent firearms.

like these...





At some point, probably on a 'slow news day' the IDF is going to quietly admit that somebody on their side of the berm got it wrong - and tell the world that some poor grunt is due to sit down for an interview without coffee.

Meanwhile all the << Israel - Right or Wrong>> crew who leap passionately to the defence of Binyamin will keep pushing the line

' The fúckers had it coming cos Grandpa was in Sobibor'

Until they are given the correct LTT by the IDF.
 
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Only if 53 out of 60 of them confirmed Hamas members armed with knives trying to breach the fence constitutes your idea of what "unarmed civilians" are.
Three points from this:

1. You're now saying Hamas' pronouncements are to be taken as gospel.
2. They're "claimed", not "confirmed".
3. Legz posted some very useful commentary about this, which seems totally logical to me. Both sides lie.

The context in which the guy from Hamas said that was important. It wasn't designed for a non-Arab audience. The interviewer was effectively accusing Hamas of hiding behind the protesters so he claimed that 50 of those killed were Hamas to try and prove that wasn't what happened. Personally I am no more inclined to believe that than anything else to do with the casualties that has come out of the Hamas Pallywood machine.


As someone who's lived here for 40 years, served in the IDF and whose other half is Muslim (who doesn't like Israel at all) I'd say the only thing you've observed so far is other people's impressions of the incident. What you have stated on this thread makes it evident that you have very little clue about what really happened. Yes, last weekend I was getting accounts of it directly from sniper friends of my lads including some of their own footage - poor sods spent 3 days and nights lying up against a berm.
This makes you an unreliable commentator - you are emotionally too close to the subject and totally unable to even consider the possibility that the actions of the IDF where excessive.

Zero Palestinians breached the fence; zero cas on the Israeli side. The fence is pretty substantial, so what chance would sombody have of actually breaching it?



[
 
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Three points from this:

1. You're now saying Hamas' pronouncements are to be taken as gospel.
2. They're "claimed", not "confirmed".
3. Legz posted some very useful commentary about this, which seems totally logical to me. Both sides lie.







This makes you an unreliable commentator - you are emotionally too close to the subject and totally unable to even consider the possibility that the actions of the IDF where excessive.

Zero Palestinians breached the fence; zero cas on the Israeli side. The fence is pretty substantial, so what chance would sombody have of actually breaching it?

[
Several pals were shot on the israeli side having breached it.

Re the image, which of the many impressive Gazan mountain ranges is that in the background?
 
Several pals were shot on the israeli side having breached it.

Re the image, which of the many impressive Gazan mountain ranges is that in the background?
First I'd heard of that, and I have no idea.

Edit; quick bit of Googling; looks like the three shot dead had indeed breached, but some weeks before the current incidents. Interesting to note the IDF seem to have withheld fire until the fence had actually been breached in this instance.

Palestinian protesters breach Israel-Gaza border fence; 3 killed, hundreds injured in clashes

Most of the reports actually say three (possibly four) were killed while trying to breach...

1527094957703.png
 
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If you have better pictures of the fence that did its job and kept the Palestinians out recently, please do share them.
Over to you.
A picture of my fence would be as useful as the one you posted which is clearly on the golan heights...the mountains are a giveaway.
 
@S11Blade - I can't claim to be the first to post the pic...

At the point at which the 'attackers' get through the wire obstacle, the 10ft trench and finally the fence, which looks fairly substantial
View attachment 334996
then it becomes an armed attack which the use of lethal force is appropriate but until then isn't it crowds of demonstrators throwing stones although an extreme case.......
 

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