IDF shoot 60-2,000 wounded.

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
Sorry I meant that the world observed them rocketing our towns and cities for weeks while we held off but when we went in to put a stop to it we got all the condemnation - the main contention being not enough of you have been killed to justify this. Strange how SWJ's and other assorted hypocrits should have a General Westmoreland-style obsession with having to have a bodycount.
Thanks @loofkar .
 
I regard the behaviour of boths sides as reprehensible. Have done for some time.

I was very much pro Israel until I saw the airburst WP.
Human Rights watch has made the point that lots of alleged WP attacks were actually just White smoke* erroneously reported as WP.

Ive also seen the drone drop tear gas identified as WP.

Now obviously this doesn't excuse the confirmed usage in (densely populated ) Urban areas (nor would I seek to), but the crime may well have been nowhere near as widespread as its now portrayed as by various anti Israeli groups for propaganda effect.


*Perhaps understandably people in proximity didn't hang around to confirm
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
The hate to Israel come from EU establishment. Now when they lost some very lucrative deals in Iran, they are mad of hatred
,snip some old paranoid balls>
More deflection....the point at issue is whether or not the IDF, in this instance, used a proportionate level of force in the face of provocation by largely unarmed civilians.

As a dispassionate observer who counts people of many faiths as friends, I'd say not.
 
Not to mention the kid whose leg was blown off by a Kassam while buying an ice cream in the corner shop. About 8-9 years ago some friends and I visited an acquaintance in Sderot. When we arrived the first thing he did was to show us his reinforced concrete security room. He then said "If the siren sounds, we all go straight to this place and wait. Waddya know an hour later in the middle of coffee and cake the siren goes off, we make it to the space followed by a tremedous crump of the rocket landing 2 streets away (no one hurt, material damage only). I was shaken by the force of the explosion even with all my experience in the mob and living on the Lebanon border.
I'm surprised 90% of kids there don't have PTSD.
Isn't Sderot an illegal settlement?
The settlements are illegal under international law
I know there source isn't Hamas, but needs must...
 

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
Human Rights watch has made the point that lots of alleged WP attacks were actually just White smoke* erroneously reported as WP.

Ive also seen the drone drop tear gas identified as WP.

Now obviously this doesn't excuse the confirmed usage in (densely populated ) Urban areas (nor would I seek to), but the crime may well have been nowhere near as widespread as its now portrayed as by various anti Israeli groups for propaganda effect.


*Perhaps understandably people in proximity didn't hang around to confirm
Certainly looks like WP from the photograph, irrespective of false reports that Israel have used WP on areas populated by civilians.

What is the escalation from use of WP and cluster bombs though and how far would Israel be prepared to take this? Defoliants (Napalm)? Mild (irritant) chemical agents? A fuel-air explosive (are we allowed to say thermobaric here)?

Whatever happens, I wouldn't want to be a Palestinian.
 
Human Rights watch has made the point that lots of alleged WP attacks were actually just White smoke* erroneously reported as WP.

Ive also seen the drone drop tear gas identified as WP.

Now obviously this doesn't excuse the confirmed usage in (densely populated ) Urban areas (nor would I seek to), but the crime may well have been nowhere near as widespread as its now portrayed as by various anti Israeli groups for propaganda effect.


*Perhaps understandably people in proximity didn't hang around to confirm
Guess what makes smoke..
Clue: it rhymes with White Phosphorus...
 
Certainly looks like WP from the photograph, irrespective of false reports that Israel have used WP on areas populated by civilians.

What is the escalation from use of WP and cluster bombs though and how far would Israel be prepared to take this? Defoliants (Napalm)? Mild (irritant) chemical agents? A fuel-air explosive (are we allowed to say thermobaric here)?

Whatever happens, I wouldn't want to be a Palestinian.
I wasn't condoning, excusing them or denying WP had been used - just pointing out even human rights groups have stated there's been many erroneous claims made.

So perhaps the Israeli claim they only used it to target mark** is more accurate than the oft put forward claim that they used WP in artillery barrages of Palestinian towns


**The illegality of that action itself amongst civilian populations is not disputed and still deserves condemnation.
 
I wasn't condoning, excusing them or denying WP had been used - just pointing out even human rights groups have stated there's been many erroneous claims made.

So perhaps the Israeli claim they only used it to target mark** is more accurate than the oft put forward claim that they used WP in artillery barrages of Palestinian towns


**The illegality of that action itself amongst civilian populations is not disputed and still deserves condemnation.
You don't target mark with airburst.
And the IDF can hit a particular building if they choose, so any claim they're using WP as a target marker is fake.
 
Guess what makes smoke..
Clue: it rhymes with White Phosphorus...
Since even Human rights groups have pointed to their investigation of some Israeli smoke rounds and said that wasn't WP whilst condemning the use of WP on other occasions - I think its a safe bet that not every Israeli smoke screen was WP.

Were discussing the conclusions of human rights investigations here, not my uninformed opinion
 
More deflection....the point at issue is whether or not the IDF, in this instance, used a proportionate level of force in the face of provocation by largely unarmed civilians.

As a dispassionate observer who counts people of many faiths as friends, I'd say not.

Only if 53 out of 60 of them confirmed Hamas members armed with knives trying to breach the fence constitutes your idea of what "unarmed civilians" are.

As someone who's lived here for 40 years, served in the IDF and whose other half is Muslim (who doesn't like Israel at all) I'd say the only thing you've observed so far is other people's impressions of the incident. What you have stated on this thread makes it evident that you have very little clue about what really happened. Yes, last weekend I was getting accounts of it directly from sniper friends of my lads including some of their own footage - poor sods spent 3 days and nights lying up against a berm.
 
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You don't target mark with sunburst, so any claim they're using WP as a target market is fake.
Point taken viz sunburst - Ive just realised were talking slightly different things - me Israeli WP usage allegations in general and you the very specific images of WP bursting over the town.

Were at slightly cross purposes -but rest assured I join you in outright condemnation of the incident(s) you refer to.


re bold
I hadn't gone that far with my conclusion -

But Ive opined elsewhere that they are cynically exploiting the rules as how and when it can be used and using that as a shield to hide behind to deflect war crimes allegations.
 
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Isn't Sderot an illegal settlement?
The settlements are illegal under international law
I know there source isn't Hamas, but needs must...
No it isn't. Sderot is in Western Negev, your link is about settlements in the West Bank. Unless of course you subscribe to the Hamas POV that no Jews should be allowed to live in Israel.

PTSD rates for kids in Gaza were the same as Sderot, or even higher depending on your source, immediately after Cast Lead. BUT they aren't anywhere near as high now, because they haven't had anything like the continued risk of a random rocket or mortar round landing on them.

Life in Sderot, before and after Iron Dome.


 

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
I wasn't condoning, excusing them or denying WP had been used - just pointing out even human rights groups have stated there's been many erroneous claims made.

So perhaps the Israeli claim they only used it to target mark** is more accurate than the oft put forward claim that they used WP in artillery barrages of Palestinian towns


**The illegality of that action itself amongst civilian populations is not disputed and still deserves condemnation.
I know you weren't but thanks anyway.
 
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Certainly looks like WP from the photograph, irrespective of false reports that Israel have used WP on areas populated by civilians.

What is the escalation from use of WP and cluster bombs though and how far would Israel be prepared to take this? Defoliants (Napalm)? Mild (irritant) chemical agents? A fuel-air explosive (are we allowed to say thermobaric here)?

Whatever happens, I wouldn't want to be a Palestinian.



My bold the Palestinians have a very simple solution, sit down and negotiate with Israel and work a solution out rather than refuse to and continue with the rhetoric of killing every Jew and wiping Israel off the map.
Of course that wouldn't please their various extremist puppet masters in who continue to fund their terrorism from the security of the various Arab States who since 1948 been urging the same thing.
If they did this it could change the face of the ME but probably not to what the extremist's want, hence the ongoing aggression. Lets not forget Israel has tried to accommodate them before in withdrawing from Sinai & Gaza, even using its own troops to move some settlers, all Israel got was an increase in rockets & terror attacks.
 
More deflection....the point at issue is whether or not the IDF, in this instance, used a proportionate level of force in the face of provocation by largely unarmed civilians.

As a dispassionate observer who counts people of many faiths as friends, I'd say not.
First of all one could hold a question - had IDF a legal ground to use force, to shoot live fire, to kill?
The protesters gathered on Palestinian side of the fence. They didn't broke it. They didn't penetrate inside Israeli territory. The very usage of live fire in this situation is doubtful.
Those who disagree may propose their counter arguments.
 
My bold the Palestinians have a very simple solution, sit down and negotiate with Israel and work a solution out rather than refuse to and continue with the rhetoric of killing every Jew and wiping Israel off the map.
Of course that wouldn't please their various extremist puppet masters in who continue to fund their terrorism from the security of the various Arab States who since 1948 been urging the same thing.
If they did this it could change the face of the ME but probably not to what the extremist's want, hence the ongoing aggression. Lets not forget Israel has tried to accommodate them before in withdrawing from Sinai & Gaza, even using its own troops to move some settlers, all Israel got was an increase in rockets & terror attacks.
The problem is Hamas

They do want a solution, a final solution....
 
First of all one could hold a question - had IDF a legal ground to use force, to shoot live fire, to kill?
The protesters gathered on Palestinian side of the fence. They didn't broke it. They didn't penetrate inside Israeli territory. The very usage of live fire in this situation is doubtful.
Those who disagree may propose their counter arguments.

You mean like Russian army rocket artillery firing across the border into Ukraine and wiping out a couple of battalions of UA troops?
 
....the Palestinians have a very simple solution, sit down and negotiate with Israel and work a solution out rather than refuse to and continue with the rhetoric of killing every Jew and wiping Israel off the map.
Part of the problem is that Israel hasn't, to my knowledge, ever said "here's a map showing what we'd accept as a final settlement, please countersign and we'll all live in peace".

Indeed, Israel feels it has the right to redraw the map as it sees fit in spite of internaltional law and countless UN resolutions.
 

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