Hypothetical.... Would Scorpion of been ideal for Afghanistan?

Discussion in 'Afghanistan' started by Grievo_87, Nov 30, 2010.

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  1. Just wondering aloud on this one. We've had quite a few discussions about CR2 going to afghan and the merits or otherwise of sending them.

    What has occured to me a few times during those discussions, was would Scorpion of been an ideal candidate for Afghanistan? Assuming of course that Scorpion would of had the same/similar LRF updates etc as Scimitar in 2003.

    I would of thought that the 76mm gun would of been an ideal fire support weapon, and would be able to punch through the walls in Afghanistan I believe the 30mm cannot penetrate if we ever had need to. Also while packing significant punch, the 76mm shell would be alot less devastating than 105mm barrages or Fast Air ordnance. Also the smaller chassis of the CVR(T) vehicle may make them more suited to Afghanistan than CR2.

    Completely hypothetical obviously, as we don't have any anymore. But I'd be interested to hear what some of the more knowledgeable guys out there have to say.
  2. never worked with scorpion, however worked on the old Fox,Scimatar and finally the Sabre and what the cvrt lacks in firepower (penetration and not rate)it more than makes up for in other areas for example comms mobility and observation ,
    im on the understanding that there were several reasons that the old scorpion was scrapped and that was down to the turret, toxicity poisoning when firing, i know you can get it any of the cvr range but the scorp was supposed to be really bad and also the gun was crap and these are the words from my DMI and Gunnery instructors!
    As for penetration against the walls out there, theres not that many weapon systems that can! (available to the Infantry)
  3. IMOO there was nothing wrong with the 76mm, a very accurate gun, capable of firing HE, Smoke Illum and good old cannister. OK so the toxicity was a problem, but it was something that I reckon could have been sorted, an extractor fan similar to the one the Fox had for instance.
  4. All the ex-Scorpions' 76mm turrets must be sitting around somewhere, waiting for someone to come up with a good idea of how/where to use/mount them ! (There are enough Saxon vehicles lying around ?!).

    I understand because of the usefulness of a RARDEN 30mm equipped turret - and because of the instability of the top-heavy Fox - the Fox turret (with RARDEN 30mm cannon), were put onto the Scorpion chassis, to produce the SABRE.

    Some years ago, I saw a number of Fox chassis without turrets, at Withams. Unfortunately, they had also been stripped of most of the running-gear (engines/gearbox), and internal fittings. I imagine the bare chassis will have gone for scrap by now.

    It’s suggested that the Fox chassis (without the impediment of a top-heavy turret), would have been a very interesting recce vehicle - much like the original Dingo, and Ferret.
  5. I didn't know that about the toxicity problems with the Scorpion. I was just thinking perhaps the 76mm would of been a better solution to dealing with snipers or firing positions that the very expensive Javelin. Especially being since CVR(T) and required supporting elements already being in theatre.

    Ta for the replies anyway.

  6. I understood that we lost our Foxes because Options reduced the number of Armd Recce regiments so they were not needed and we had signed an arms reduction agreement with the reds.
  7. jim24

    jim24 Book Reviewer

    The 76mm L 23 A1 was indeed a very handy weapon, putting both HESH and HE out to 2300 meters and indirect fire out to 5000 meters with a projectile weight of about 7.5 kilos with 40 rounds carried in the veh. a Hesh roud coming in at over 500mps would probably do the job at a fraction of the cost of a Javelin or 105mm
  8. As I understand it the Fox to Sabre scheme was due to a combination of the factors already mentioned.

    A reduction in armd recce regiments freed up a number of CVR(T). For both practical and treaty reasons it was decided to withdraw all the Scorpions and concentrate the Scimitars in the remaining armd recce regiments. Meanwhile the infantry recce platoons were unhappy with the Fox and so it was decided to move the Fox turrets to the Scorpion hulls, creating the Sabre.

    By the way, there was a prototype Vixen, a Fox with a higher hull and a small MG turret.
  9. The toxicity problem, generated by L42, was never going to be overcome: the body of the gun was inside the hull so, on a long co-ax battle run, the commander and gunner hopped out with screeching headaches and a mouth tasting like a 10-day old kebab.

    Having said that, in the late 80'sI did a trial for GKN who had produce an export upgrade: still with 76mm but with gunners laser sight. Up to 2200, it was almost first round kill everytime - none of this 3 round plus-minus-target nonsense. The engine was a new diesel pack, revised final drives and idlers: it even had a 40-channel prototype frequency hopping radio.

    But, given the current Command IED threat, I would'nt give you tuppence for crew survival unless there was a major re-think of the hull design and construction.
  10. Sounds like a Saladin would be better for the job.......
  11. That's exactly what they were proposing about 6 months or so ago.

    I believe the plan was to address Herrick attrition, and provide enough capability growth to last until FRES Scout kicks in.
  12. Really? Flip me - did'nt think things were that bad. Scorp was a good vehicle to work with but it had it's limitations. I believe that it had reached the end of its effective life cycle: steam gunnery at its finest but it's a 40-odd year old design.
  13. In a word. 'No'; 'Wind of Change' was perfect for the dismantling of the Berlin Wall but Afghanistan requires something altogether thrashier, interspersed with some of that evocative wailing shite you get on any TV prog about the area. YouTube - Scorpions - Wind Of Change

    If you meant the little tank type of Scorpion I think the answer would still be no. On the plus side it has a light footprint- less than a man if I remember correctly, but this would be no help for command wire stuff, and no air con, although the BV might come in handy on a cool night.
  14. Unlike it's sibling Scimitar you mean?
  15. IIRC, the accepted foot print for Scorp was 13lb per square inch?

    Switching to SBY-CORRECTION as I maybe wrong.