Hydrogen injection into diesel engines

Discussion in 'Cars, Bikes 'n AFVs' started by muhandis89, Jan 1, 2011.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. I have just obtained a hydrogen generator,powered from my alternator,that produces hydrogen from water.The gas is then injected into the engine,via the air intake.Some say that this can save up to 20% on fuel,but if I get 10%,I will be happy.The engine concerned is a 3.2litre Merc diesel(6 cylinder).I would be glad to hear from anyone who has done this,and what problems/satisfaction they got?
  2. how much has this set-up cost you? Anything to see worthy of a photo?
  3. Any useful links? Sounds interesting
  4. German machinery and Hydrogen haven't mixed that well in the past :-

  5. It would depend greatly on the "efficiency" of the unit, that is to say, how much energy is consumed by the unit running from your alternator vs energy saved in diesel fuel. If we take as an example a natural gas power station: For the sake of simplicity, say that a given volume of natural gas contains 100 units of what we shall call "energy". By the time that volume of gas has run through the gas turbine,(and leaving aside the CCGT method) it's transmission and AC converters, you're looking at only 70 units of our "energy", 30 units having been lost through heat, transmission and frictional heat. Thus, the GT is deemed 70% "efficient"

    Remember, the alternator on a conventional reciprocating (or indeed any IC engine) is a "parasitic load", much like a water pump, PAS pump, belt or chain driven cams etc.
  6. Almost laughed my bits off! Still that wasn't the last problem that the Germans had with gas.
  7. It strikes me that the load this kit must put on the alternator must be huge; splitting up water in hydrogen and oxygen is enormously energy-intensive, probably more so that you'd get back from burning the hydrogen. However if the hydrogen came from fuel residue or a big tank somewhere then it might work.

    Swap the Merc for a Prius. That'll keep the fuel bills down. :wink:
  8. My schoolboy physics says that the extra energy you get in your cylinder from burning the hydrogen - i.e. combining the hydrogen with oxygen will be equal to the amount of energy used in splitting the hydrogen from oxygen by electrolysis, less the losses from mechanical inefficiency of the alternator in generating the electrical current. It seems likely that the amount of H2 and O2 you can produce by electrolysis using the current from an alternator would be unlikely to make the sort of difference in output from the engine you have been quoted. In theory then, you will be getting less energy back from this system than you had to start with (probably lost as heat from the drive belt/alternator system generated by mechanical friction and heating of the wires carrying the current due to resistance), plus your car is carrying around extra equipment and water to electrolyse, which would tend to make it less fuel efficient overall. The only possible benefit would be if the device made the combustion of fuel in the chamber more complete, but modern engines do not pump out large amounts of unburnt fuel anway so there is little to be gained there.

    In short then, you are unlikely to get any benefit from whatever you paid for this magic bit of kit, otherwise car manufacturers competing to supply more fuel efficient vehicles would be fitting it as standard. It is worth remembering that Wikipedia articles are "community contributed" - in other words, whatever you read on there was probably written by the people selling the kit.
  9. Hi,
    All it will do is trick you lambda sensor into thinking there is to much fuel in the system and lean your fuel/air ratio, the result being holes in top of pistons !!
    I looked into this a while ago and passed it by one of the reserch bods where i work, he did a few calcs and the amount energy you need to put in , you get very little out .
    Anyway i would be intersted to see if you get it to work.
    These peeps are saying that it is in their sports cars but i dont thing they have actually started manufacture yet.
    Welcome to Ronn Motor Company

    Kind regards,

    R M
  10. I believe you have been conned. I supsect that the result you will see will be zero. (Actually you will lose a small amount of economy but it will be insignificant so you will be quite happy to fool yourself into thinking that you are at least no worse off in that regard). Had I not told you that, you would probably have just about managed to fool yourself into believing that you had actually got a very small benefit from the device but that disappointment was due to your driving style that was not allowing you to get the full benefit, or maybe it just needs setting up better.

    The reality is that there is no such thing as free energy. The system, even if it did work, would work at a net loss of power. Think about the basic proposition:

    I use power (electricity derived from the efforts of an internal combustion engine) to split Hydrogen from Oxygen in my super water fuelled hydrogen cell. I make power (mechanical) as a result of combining Hydrogen and Oxygen in my internal combustion engine. Even if both processes were 100% efficient the net power result would be zero. But both processes are NOT efficient so there is energy lost. Net result, any way you look at it, is a power drain.
  11. I agree with all of the above: no way how you split it (see what I did there!) you will expend more energy in producing the hydrogen than you would get out.

    There is a reaon that our national power grid isn't supplied by this technology!
  12. You may well be right.Tomorrow I shall assemble the bits.The power for the Generator is derived from the battery,which is activated by a switch/relay,once the engine has been switched on.It is well know that,in a not cat engine,that fuel will burn more efficiently in a hydrogen/oxygen mixture,but we'll have to see.The system I'm using is this:
    Punch HHO - Ultra High Output HHO Cells
  13. Fronty

    Fronty Old-Salt Book Reviewer

    There was a program about this technology on the telly a good few months ago now. Some bloke with a Range Rover tried it out and found zit had zero benefit to his fuel consumption. From memory, there is no way that your car battery is going to have the necessary power to crack water to produce enough hydrogen to make a difference to your fuel consumption.

    How much did the kit set you back?