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Howard speaks out...

...and Bliar, Buff Hoon etc say that any criticisms of Dubya would put the lives of British troops at risk.

Speaking as an increasingly-angry serviceman, I wish someone would criticise the Americans for their wedding massacre and their institutionalised torture. It might make me stop being ashamed of my uniform and my nation, by association with these savages.
MrPVRd, it would seem all we (the British) can do is carry on maintaining our standards of discpline. Continue trying to win over the Iraqi people. Hope the the US realise we might actually be onto something - i.e not shooting the **** out of everything that moves.
I agree. How much fire control discipline is taught in US training? I don't think they do it because they're afraid; just ill disciplined.
Moi, being the cynical git that I am believe that the US will not learn over all these fiascos (see Mil.com :roll: !). They are progressing down a road where all non-believers in their vision of democracy are by-passed. I mean just look at Chalibi, he dared speak against the US and not toe the line and in they go with charges against him!
This vision GB has is down right dangerous. The sooner the US vote him out the bloody better.
MrPVRd said:
I wish someone would criticise the Americans for their wedding massacre
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but did they not use a similar tactic in Viet Nam? "Reconnaisance by fire", I think they termed it. Do they never learn?
In a way we are getting to be as guilty as the Americans in one respect: viewing them through our cultural norms and criticising them for their failure to meet our cultural standrads.

Before you could get the Spams to adhere to a discipline as we see it you will have to change the culture of their army to be more like ours, something you will never achieve in a lifetime. Their is an army whose culture is born of their national culture and experience, as is ours. We have had NI, Cyprus, Belieze over the last 40 years for us to learn from our mistakes. While there are comparisons between the type of enemy in NI and Vietnam, the similarities are not vast. They need to learn as we did. sadly it seems they awant to learn the hard way. So be it.

It would also be unfair to tar them all with the same brush, it's a comparitively vast army and for every numpty there are more than a number of good, disciplined, professional soldiers. Sadly the fact that they have a bigger army and thus more numptys means more likelyhood of dramas.

But let's turn to the issue, which is Blair trying to wriggle (once again) out of criticism by trying to turn the attention away from his fcuked foreign policy by suggesting it is unpatriotic to criticise him or Bush. After all if people actually believed that crap they would rather stay silent than put our lads lives in danger.

Sadly for Bliar, the nation knows he's a lieing cnut!
So many of these american disiplinery problems seems to orignate with Gaurd/Reservist formations whos basic training seems lacking.
Private soldiers seems not to have been supervised by seniors and commisioned officers, or where as I believe, instructed to carry out the acts all have seen.
It would be wrong to punish only the common soldier the matter has to go much higher.
How high I do not know but suspect very high, certainly to general officer rank and most likely to ministerial position.
The treatment of these prisoners who do not qualify for Geneva rules is a disgrace and unworthy of Blairs allies.
A contributing factor to the lack of discipline in the US Military, vis their treatment of Iraqi prisoners is the lack of supervision by Senior NCOs.
USA/USMC E5 Sergeant and E6 Staff Sergeants are not Seniors as Brits understand them. ARRSE has visited the issue of UK/US ranks and rates before. The separate messing/Godlike/fountain of all wisdom status kicks in at E7.

No photographs so far of E7s and upward in abuse mode or looking on. Too smart to be photographed, too weak, too slack (‘if you want me I’ll be in the mess’)?

The other aspect influencing Septic behaviour is their lack of knowledge and awareness of all things outside the USA, unthinking, blinkered patriotism, my country right or (can’t be) wrong, information and reinforcement from Hollywood films. ‘I was doing my jab! I’d do it again’. Many Septic Senior Officers come across as muppets too whereas British Senior Officers are (usually) articulate soldier diplomats with an eye on the bigger picture.

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