How would you redesign NATO - if at all?

Has NATO expanded too far?

  • Yes

    Votes: 19 57.6%
  • No

    Votes: 10 30.3%
  • Maybe, but it should stop where it is

    Votes: 4 12.1%

  • Total voters
    33
FFS thats just rude.

I was born in Northumberland and dragged up in the administrative area of Cumbria and so was unfortunate to have not been born in one of gods counties of Cumberland, Westmoreland and Lancashire; excluding Westmoreland and Cumberland.

I am British by the good fortune, English by accident of birth and a pukka pure bred northerner by the grace of god.

But we'll gloss over the bit about how I now live in Wales.....
No need to thank me ;)
 
Whoopy Goldberg for me :)
My mistake. I thought you suggested removing the sugar. You didn’t mention milk.

I’ve just searched for some more contemporary movies about nuns. A top tip: don’t google “black nun movies” when you’re sitting in a corporate hospitality box at a test match.
 
My mistake. I thought you suggested removing the sugar. You didn’t mention milk.

I’ve just searched for some more contemporary movies about nuns. A top tip: don’t google “black nun movies” when you’re sitting in a corporate hospitality box at a test match.
Yes...you’ve spotted my plan for salami slicing (SWIDT) the NATO catering budget. I’d start with the sugar and then go for the milk too :)

But as stated above, we’d have to work out a way to deal with all those Air Force types using Starbucks etc...
 
Yes...you’ve spotted my plan for salami slicing (SWIDT) the NATO catering budget. I’d start with the sugar and then go for the milk too :)

But as stated above, we’d have to work out a way to deal with all those Air Force types using Starbucks etc :)
I think your plan may be flawed as rations are a supplying nation responsibility.

The other flaw is that only one NATO nation supplies tea. If you salami slice the tea budget, then you are, de facto, slicing the British contribution.

Perhaps a better target for salami slicing would be the wine budget as that would hit the cheese eaters and those whose tanks only have reverse gears. On second thoughts, if you’re going to salami slice the Italian contribution you might as well just slice their salami.

I don’t think this is going the way the OP thought it would.
 

arfah

LE
What about English Channel, North Sea, and Mediterranean coasts?

Perhaps a good start would be thinking about the importance of trans Atlantic resupply and reinforcement.
Nah, fcuk ‘em!
 
Instead of using GDP as a measure of commitment. Assign countries a specific number of brigades, squadrons, and ships to have available to the alliance.
They're called defence targets as part of the NATO Defence Planning Process, and they already happen. Thank you for your knowledgable contribution.
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
I can honestly say from quite a bit of time at NATO HQ Brussels that NATO Standard is now:- Starbucks/Costa/Generic thing depending which is your nearest outlet and which part of the site you're on. The delegations being semi sovereign territory have all sorts of brew machines, so the standard is whatever they've got going :)
I object, I've been there a lot recently and the brew selection is outstanding. I slipped my host (a German) even though his brew was cracking for a Pole who's coffee machine was flipping' awesome. I even found a charming Italian lass who made a decent cup of afternoon tea! Based on the brews, NATO is on the up!
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
So what is the UK’s defence target ? Can you meet it, then what of the Germans?
A better way, as Skipped is pointing out, is to look at what is required and met. For example support or leading the NRF and meeting the standards needed for that. At the moment I'd say the UK and Germany (certainly Navies) both meet their commitments. What you see in the press is largely fluff.
 
A better way, as Skipped is pointing out, is to look at what is required and met. For example support or leading the NRF and meeting the standards needed for that. At the moment I'd say the UK and Germany (certainly Navies) both meet their commitments. What you see in the press is largely fluff.
Well Mattis had a 30/30/30/30 goal to start with. But can the non American countries meet at least 50 percent of that requirement? Readily deployable units matter.
 

Yokel

LE
Nah, fcuk ‘em!
Who exactly does that leave? United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Norway, Iceland, France, Spain, and Portugal? What about Italy and their carriers and amphibious forces, and the Netherlands with their amphibious forces. Both will be useful for securing the flanks in both the North and South.

Well Mattis had a 30/30/30/30 goal to start with. But can the non American countries meet at least 50 percent of that requirement? Readily deployable units matter.
What does 30/30/30/30 mean?
 
Who exactly does that leave? United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Norway, Iceland, France, Spain, and Portugal? What about Italy and their carriers and amphibious forces, and the Netherlands with their amphibious forces. Both will be useful for securing the flanks in both the North and South.



What does 30/30/30/30 mean?
30 battalions, squadrons and ships ready to fight in 30 days.
 
Double the size of the Spanish Legion. To paraphrase the Duke of Wellington, I don't know what effect these men will have upon the enemy, but, by God, they frighten me.
 
The English can do what thy like.
I am a northener, I drink tea, from a mug, I put the milk in last and use two tea bags. The I add sugar (well, now I'm a diabetic I actually have 5 sweeteners but you get the point)

The American's can do what they like but drinking coffee is a sign of weakness.
It is a proven fact that only metrosexual, intellectually deficient wierdo's drink coffee.
Its a scientifically proven fact

Side point - our national drink used to be coffee.
 

Yokel

LE
Side point - our national drink used to be coffee.
Are you sure? Where did the Coffee come from? Was Coffee available before Tea?

Expanding on a previous post, many NATO nations (the European ones anyway) send warships to be trained by FOST, and there are currently ASW helicopters from the Royal Netherlands Navy training at RNAS Culdrose (one of which helped nab an armed criminal). Since securing the Atlantic and other sea lines of communications is critical, why not have a NATO centre of excellence for ASW?

Talking of ASW warships and helicopters, why not have something similar to the European Carrier Group Interoperability Initiative or the STOVL Carrier Training Initiative, both discussed here.

As a solution to the ‘how’ question (in terms of ‘how to do things together’), NATO and EU navies’ enterprises stood up since 2009 (in line with both the ‘Smart Defence’ / ‘Pooling and Sharing’ concepts and the Connected Forces Initiative, CFI), have sought to increase their operational and training synergy. For example, bilateral agreements are in place between the UK and French Navies that emphasize working ‘closely on carrier group cooperation and on coordinating maritime security patrols in the Atlantic to deliver maximum effect’11. On a more extended scale, the ‘European Carrier Group Interoperability Initiative’ (ECGII) and the ‘STOVL12 Carrier Training Initiative’ (SCTI) are worth a deeper discussion. Both initiatives have common goals, such as:
  • rationalizing, by a holistic and synergistic approach, the use of aircraft carriers and their integrated weapon system (consisting of aircraft and the related support);
  • enhancing interoperability by participating in joint operations and exercises across the full range of multi-role tasks (the cornerstone of the ability to project power over the sea and from the sea);
  • facilitating the exchange of knowledge and lessons learned on doctrinal, operational, technical and logistical aspects, in order to enhance standardization.
As the words themselves suggest, the ECGII is a European enterprise created to enhance interoperability and capability in amphibious and carrier strike group operations through fostering enhanced cooperation and joint training and exercises at both the tactical and operational levels. The rationale behind this is to allow for more rapid and effective CSG deployments during EU or NATO operations. Since its inception in 2012, ECGII continues to progress. In October 2012, a large Franco-Italian battle Group with participation of the French Carrier Charles de Gaulle and the Italian Carrier Cavour practiced its interoperability for 11 days in the Mediterranean Sea during Exercise Levante. The exercise offered the two navies the opportunity to achieve a high level of mutual understanding, cooperation and interoperability, particularly in implementing carrier aviation capacities. This exercise marked an initial major achievement and paved the way for the future of the ECGII initiative.

SCTI is a project developed by the Italian Navy, with the goal to enhance training for STOVL aircraft and carriers, through exchange activities and interaction with the involvement of all NATO / EU navies operating STOVL aircraft. From the very beginning, SCTI received considerable interest by all participants (FR, US, UK and SP). Initially defined with a draft Operational Agreement prepared by the Italian Navy, it was presented at the first SCTI Conference, held at the Italian Naval Air Station in Grottaglie back in April 2009. The initial agreements included the establishment of procedures and regulations, as well as identifying opportunities for joint training. Meanwhile, a specific doctrine (which will presumably be called APP13-18) is currently being developed by the Royal Navy. This doctrine is aimed at defining minimum standards for a STOVL flight detachment to embark on another nation’s carrier.
 
Are you sure? Where did the Coffee come from? Was Coffee available before Tea?
The coffee came from the Ottoman empire around about the 15/1600s.- the Muslims used to drink coffee to enable them to pray for longer periods. It came to the UK, and I think perhaps one of the first European (central at least) nations to drink coffee was the Brits. This led to coffee houses which eventually had to be licensed. The coffee house functioned as a sort of ARRSE where people got together, people from all walks of life, and debated things like politics etc. The king at the time didn't like this - hence why he brought in the licensing requirement, because they wanted to outlaw coffee houses.

Some of the big companies like Lloyd's also trace their history back to the coffee house too. Lloyd's Coffee House - Wikipedia

Tea didn't become popular until much later, and was kind of forced on the British populace by way of the East India Trading company. Historically, we are a coffee drinking nation. English coffeehouses in the 17th and 18th centuries - Wikipedia

Also - modern coffee houses are not really as such. They mainly sell milk.
 
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A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
What does 30/30/30/30 mean?
A 30-30-30-30 readiness plan to counter what the Pentagon perceives as an increasing Russian ground force threat. The plan calls on NATO allies to assemble 30 land battalions, 30 air squadrons and 30 combat vessels capable of deploying in 30 days or less by the year 2020.
 
Since securing the Atlantic and other sea lines of communications is critical, why not have a NATO centre of excellence for ASW?
It would only be up to the UK to make the offer. NATO tends not to turn down COEs, as the cost is effectively borne by the supplying nation.
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
Well Mattis had a 30/30/30/30 goal to start with. But can the non American countries meet at least 50 percent of that requirement? Readily deployable units matter.
Are you wholly certain the US can? Availability and readiness across the board in the US is a concern to people I meet. There is no doubt the US has a significant force but they have the same challenges most Western militaries do and at a greater scale.

Latest assessment of US readiness/preparadness
 

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