How will the Ukraine war end?

How will the Ukraine war end?

  • Rebels win,Eastern Ukraine goes independent

    Votes: 86 50.0%
  • Putin invades Kiev, NATO doesn't move

    Votes: 47 27.3%
  • Putin invades Kiev, NATO fights Russia

    Votes: 10 5.8%
  • Rebels lose, Ukraine stays united

    Votes: 29 16.9%

  • Total voters
    172
That's what I mean, talking about "fuzzy logic". Authors of Wikipedia wrote:

"Linguistically, cockney English refers to the accent or dialect of English traditionally spoken by working-class Londoners. "

So is Ukrainian. "Arm" is "arm" (ruka), "leg" is "leg" (noga), but "arse" is "ass" ("jopa" is "dupa"). For most of Russians Ukrainian is understandable, but funny.
Yes, the differences between accent, dialect, and language is arbitrary, variable, and a matter of opinion. There's no absolute line dividing one category from another.

A good example is that two Italian speakers may not understand one another if they speak their own local dialects, but an Italian speaker can often understand most of what a Spanish speaker says despite the two being considered separate languages.

Most scholars on languages considered Ukrainian to be a "language". Note my example above though with respect to Italian versus Spanish which shows how related languages can still be largely mutually intelligible.

English is a poor starting point for this sort of discussion, because it's heavy mixture of simplified Germanic grammar and large amounts of Latin vocabulary results in it not having any very close relatives.

I should point out though that calling Ukrainian a "dialect" of Russian isn't going to help your case if you are going to argue in favour of the linguistic rights of the Russian speakers of Ukraine. International conventions on the rights of minorities generally offer languages greater protection than dialects.

We have a little amount of them in Russia, and this languages are not neighter "official", nor "state" languages. There are 174 languages used in Russia, 35 are "official" and 15 are "state" languages (from 14 language families). Parents can demand education in any "official" language in subject of Federation.
In Canada this may be limited by the number of local speakers of a minority language. For example in Ontario (which is officially bilingual) the level of provision of French services (including education) will vary from place to place depending upon the number of French speakers who appear in the local census.
 
For Russians "Freedom of thinking" means, first of all, possibility to learn his own of foreign language. "Think different" does not mean "Buy Apple© production", but "Learn different languages and read different books".
That's why we think, that Septics and Underseptics live in the worst kind of slavery - "Mental slavery".
Freedom of thinking means having access to various sources, being able to question those sources and being able to think for yourself and even express those thoughts.

Imagine a Russian version of Arrse where you could post pictures taking the Mickey (poking fun at) political leaders, where you could say things about political leaders and not be afraid of your door being broken down by the secret police (who don't exist). That's one version of 'freedom of thinking'
 

YarS

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Freedom of thinking means having access to various sources, being able to question those sources and being able to think for yourself and even express those thoughts.
Ok. Let's work with this definition. You have no access to most of non-English sources, you are not able to question those sources, you are not able to think different and even express those thoughts.

You have no any "freedom of thinking". Quod erat demonstrandum.

Imagine a Russian version of Arrse where you could post pictures taking the Mickey (poking fun at) political leaders, where you could say things about political leaders and not be afraid of your door being broken down by the secret police (who don't exist). That's one version of 'freedom of thinking'
Hm... You was wide of the mark (as usually). Thread "funny pictures" in rusarmy.com
Смешные картинки и рисунки

Even in the first posts are funny images of political leaders.

But posting a funny pictures is not real freedom. Real freedom is when you can understand reality.
 
That article is talking about Ukrainian refugees and workers in Russia, not ethnic Ukrainians in general. Here's the exact quote.

These people will primarily be in Russia to work, so the education question doesn't really arise. Very large numbers of Ukrainians have emigrated to Russia, either permanently or temporarily, because the standard of living in Russia is much higher, and the cultural barriers are very low. This migration has played a large part in the rapid decline of population in Ukraine over the past couple of decades (basically since 1990).

Your article however notes that Ukrainians in Russia are closely integrated into society there, often marry Russians, and are often registered as being ethnically Russian. @KGB_resident may be able to offer insight into whether the latter may be driven by Russian immigration law giving preference to ethnic Russians (versus say Central Asian Turkic people) returning to Russia as a legacy of the breakup of the Soviet Union.


About the new language law itself, I have to say it bodes ill for the future of Ukraine as according to the news stories that I've read it applies to the large Russian speaking Ukrainian population, not just the Hungarian, Polish, and Romanian minorities.

In Canada if we tried imposing that on the Francophone population here I can guaranty that we would end up with a civil war. This issue was in fact one of the primary provocations behind the Red River Rebellion in Manitoba, which we had to send in the army to crush, and then end up reversing ourselves on anyway. However that initial mistake left a very sour political legacy which has lasted to this day.

I don't think that anyone who doesn't live in a bilingual country can truly understand just how dangerous this development is for the future unity of Ukraine.
I appreciate a large proportion of the Ukrainians in Russia are there for work and not settling permanently with families. And I can see I quoted the wrong figure in making my point.

But there a significant minority there, wiki quotes it as 3rd largest. Many of these may not be too interested or see themselves as Ukrainians and are assimilated. But when comparing Russia and Ukraine. It is notable that according to this

Is the international tempest over minority languages in Ukraine's education law justified? -

There are no Ukrainian language schools serving the diaspora and ethnic Ukrainians compared to the number in Ukraine for ethnic Russians. I appreciate that Russians are a larger proportion of the population than Ukrainians in Russia but if the same 'rules' applied then I would have expected some schools to Exist for the likely number of Ukrainians who wished to have their kids go there.

I take your point about how to deal with minority language issues and the particular circumstances in Canada. Each country will work out how to accommodate this dependent upon the politics, governance and level of minority rights they get. In Canada it wasn't a case of the survival of the English or French languages, there are plenty of users of both throughout the world. Ukraine has its own issues to deal with including keeping itself together as unitary state and possibly survival of the language.

The way they have gone about it may not be perfect. A driver was to roll back Russification it seems. According to this it wasn't just by edict but involved consultation with ngo's and others as part of a complete overhaul of the education system.

The Sunday Show: Education Reform Row, Germany Votes, Czarist Sex Scandal, International Anti-Corruption, Zapad War Game

Ukraine’s Education Reform Angers Neighbors Over Minority Rights
 
I appreciate a large proportion of the Ukrainians in Russia are there for work and not settling permanently with families. And I can see I quoted the wrong figure in making my point.

But there a significant minority there, wiki quotes it as 3rd largest. Many of these may not be too interested or see themselves as Ukrainians and are assimilated. But when comparing Russia and Ukraine. It is notable that according to this

Is the international tempest over minority languages in Ukraine's education law justified? -

There are no Ukrainian language schools serving the diaspora and ethnic Ukrainians compared to the number in Ukraine for ethnic Russians. I appreciate that Russians are a larger proportion of the population than Ukrainians in Russia but if the same 'rules' applied then I would have expected some schools to Exist for the likely number of Ukrainians who wished to have their kids go there.
It's the survival of Ukraine we are talking about here, not the survival of Russia. The more that people go on about how many Ukrainian language schools there in Russia compared to how many Russian language schools there are in Ukraine, the more it's made to look like a punitive measure directed against the Russian language minority in Ukraine. It's made to look even more so by the fact the Tartar language, which has far fewer speakers, is exempted from this policy.

Your story link describes it as a "de-Russification" policy, and they see that as a good thing. How well do you think that goes over with the people in eastern Ukraine who are being told they're going to be subjected to forced "de-Russification"? Do you seriously think they will passively accept it?

I take your point about how to deal with minority language issues and the particular circumstances in Canada. Each country will work out how to accommodate this dependent upon the politics, governance and level of minority rights they get.
One can however learn from the history of other countries who have faced similar problems. There are plenty of multi-lingual countries, and in all of them that I am aware of language is a hot-button issue.

In Canada it wasn't a case of the survival of the English or French languages, there are plenty of users of both throughout the world.
Really? All you're showing here is that you don't understand the issue. The survival of French in their part of the world is exactly how francophone Canadians describe things. That is, they use the word "survival" to describe their struggle. Knowing that French may survive elsewhere in the world provides no consolation to them if it does not survive in their own land. The Quebec separatists phrase their arguments in terms that say that only with independence can they guaranty the survival of their language and culture.

Ukraine has its own issues to deal with including keeping itself together as unitary state and possibly survival of the language.

The way they have gone about it may not be perfect. A driver was to roll back Russification it seems. According to this it wasn't just by edict but involved consultation with ngo's and others as part of a complete overhaul of the education system.

The Sunday Show: Education Reform Row, Germany Votes, Czarist Sex Scandal, International Anti-Corruption, Zapad War Game

Ukraine’s Education Reform Angers Neighbors Over Minority Rights
Let's cut to the basics here. Language is an issue that people fight civil wars over. That's the lesson of history. Britain knew this in the 18th century, which is how the policy followed to this day in Canada came about. Canada forgot it in the 19th century in Manitoba, and the people rose up in armed rebellion to remind us about it.

In practical terms today, what this means is that people who live in a region with significant numbers of them sharing a common language and cultural and historical background want to use their language in:
  • their everyday life, and on the television, radio, and in the shops
  • education
  • health care services
  • the work place
  • religion (which is often intertwined with it)
Ukraine has in the past shown a spectacular level of incompetence when it comes to politics, and we're seeing another example of it here. Moscow themselves could not devise a policy more likely to sow discord and rebellion in the eastern regions of Ukraine than the one which Kiev have come up with.
 

YarS

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@terminal , you are absolutely right, but I think it is not "incompetence", but 100% conscious politic of destabilisation/derussification. They are Nazies, and their "heroes" are mass-murders of peaceful population.
Ukrainian radicals (and their foreign masters) really want war.
 
I appreciate a large proportion of the Ukrainians in Russia are there for work and not settling permanently with families. And I can see I quoted the wrong figure in making my point.

But there a significant minority there, wiki quotes it as 3rd largest. Many of these may not be too interested or see themselves as Ukrainians and are assimilated. But when comparing Russia and Ukraine. It is notable that according to this

Is the international tempest over minority languages in Ukraine's education law justified? -

There are no Ukrainian language schools serving the diaspora and ethnic Ukrainians compared to the number in Ukraine for ethnic Russians. I appreciate that Russians are a larger proportion of the population than Ukrainians in Russia but if the same 'rules' applied then I would have expected some schools to Exist for the likely number of Ukrainians who wished to have their kids go there.

I take your point about how to deal with minority language issues and the particular circumstances in Canada. Each country will work out how to accommodate this dependent upon the politics, governance and level of minority rights they get. In Canada it wasn't a case of the survival of the English or French languages, there are plenty of users of both throughout the world. Ukraine has its own issues to deal with including keeping itself together as unitary state and possibly survival of the language.

The way they have gone about it may not be perfect. A driver was to roll back Russification it seems. According to this it wasn't just by edict but involved consultation with ngo's and others as part of a complete overhaul of the education system.

The Sunday Show: Education Reform Row, Germany Votes, Czarist Sex Scandal, International Anti-Corruption, Zapad War Game

Ukraine’s Education Reform Angers Neighbors Over Minority Rights
Let's ask @terminal how many Ukrainian schools are in Canada (with Ukrainian as a language of teaching). As I understand - zero. According to this source
Украинские школы Канады восточного обряда
there are 4 Ukrainian Catholic schools in Toronto but it means only that pupils learn Ukrainian language (spend half an hour on it daily).
It is impractical to have education on Ukrainian in schools for obvious reasons. The same is true in Russia.
Family of a cousine of my wife in the city of Dnepr all are devoted Ukrainians and a bit nationalists. Her husband is an engineer born in Zhitomir (to the West from Kiev). They all are Russian speakers (big cities in Ukraine are Russian speaking). Their son had to study in Ukrainian school. From formal point of view all teachers have to use Ukrainian but de facto most of lessons were in Russian with rare incertion of Ukrainian words. Even Ukrainian language was taught in Russian. As a result Slava after education in Ukrainian school had too poor knowledge of the language to pass exams in the university. So relatives of my wife had to pay to a teacher to resolve the problem. Education in university was also 'in Ukrainian' but de facto most of lectures were in Russian. Most of professors don't know Ukrainian in sufficient degree to give lectures on it. On some subjects there are no textbooks in Ukrainian - only in Russian or English.
The educational law in question is merely unviable.
For Ukrainian Hungarians abolition of Hungarian schools means a catastrophe. Just imagine that all schools in Ireland have Irish as a working language. Effect would be the same.
 
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YarS

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@KGB_resident it is answer on your suspicious - I'm clever and educated, and there are no "clever and educated" Ukrainians, becouse they became Russians.
@terminal - there are one more difference between Ukraine and Canada - both French and English are languages of culture. French culture is higher, English one is wider. Ukrainian is the tongue of villagers. Writers, living in Ukraine usually write in Russian. And now there are no translations of fiction books in Ukrainian (it was in Soviet times).
@scalieback , can you recommend any "Reversed Pigmalion" type film? Something about high-rank British lady, that, becouse of her own will, became law-cost whore somewhere in the East-End and learn Cockney dialect?
 
@scalieback , can you recommend any "Reversed Pigmalion" type film? Something about high-rank British lady, that, becouse of her own will, became law-cost whore somewhere in the East-End and learn Cockney dialect?
Cockney Rhyming Slang, London Slang, Rhyming Slang Dictionary
As I said, it's English, with an accent. Saying 'Lahrndan' instead of London. They have rhyming slang as above:
"Took the cheese and kisses down the frog and toad to the rub a dub"

Try any film with Bob Hoskins, not Dick van Dyke
 
"terminal, post: 8157166, member: 88377"]It's the survival of Ukraine we are talking about here, not the survival of Russia. The more that people go on about how many Ukrainian language schools there in Russia compared to how many Russian language schools there are in Ukraine, the more it's made to look like a punitive measure directed against the Russian language minority in Ukraine. It's made to look even more so by the fact the Tartar language, which has far fewer speakers, is exempted from this policy.
You're right. It does look and could be punitive. Not saying it isn't but without having yet found anything saying it is I'll go with part of the reason being de-russification of elements of the education system and ensuring minorities are able to speak Ukrainian and don't become socially isolated enclaves.

Your story link describes it as a "de-Russification" policy, and they see that as a good thing. How well do you think that goes over with the people in eastern Ukraine who are being told they're going to be subjected to forced "de-Russification"? Do you seriously think they will passively accept it?
Probably not very well with many but may be accepted by a proportion, and no I don't know what these may be. If I've understood the changes correctly then initial schooling will still remain in the various ethnic languages until they get older. Some may be happy enough with this, but I guess not all.

One can however learn from the history of other countries who have faced similar problems. There are plenty of multi-lingual countries, and in all of them that I am aware of language is a hot-button issue.
And they've all come to that accommodation in varying ways. I would have hoped that Kyiv sought advice and consulted on how to go about this and from what I've seen they have. How well they have done this I don't know and maybe they may carry out a review of the roll out which remains to be seen.

Really? All you're showing here is that you don't understand the issue. The survival of French in their part of the world is exactly how francophone Canadians describe things. That is, they use the word "survival" to describe their struggle. Knowing that French may survive elsewhere in the world provides no consolation to them if it does not survive in their own land. The Quebec separatists phrase their arguments in terms that say that only with independence can they guaranty the survival of their language and culture.
Believe me I do understand. I'm not fully au fait with the history but I'm aware of it and the Quebecois sense of self and desire to uphold their language and traditions. I'm aware of the separatist and sovereignty sentiments, De Gaulle's stirring it up with vive Quebec libre, , (I had a taste of it myself in Quebec city being told off for not speaking French when I politely asked a lady to pass by her in what was a tight space in a shop. I later heard her explaining in English to another tourist the importance of French to them. And loved Quebec but I think I preferred Montreal out of the two) And yes maybe I didn't express it too well with my comments on language survival.


Let's cut to the basics here. Language is an issue that people fight civil wars over. That's the lesson of history. Britain knew this in the 18th century, which is how the policy followed to this day in Canada came about. Canada forgot it in the 19th century in Manitoba, and the people rose up in armed rebellion to remind us about it.

In practical terms today, what this means is that people who live in a region with significant numbers of them sharing a common language and cultural and historical background want to use their language in:
  • their everyday life, and on the television, radio, and in the shops
  • education
  • health care services
  • the work place
  • religion (which is often intertwined with it)
Of course. My parents experienced this first hand, primarily between the wars when they became part of Poland when the Ukrainian language was repressed and they were treated as second class citizens. I remember my dad many years ago emotionally recalling the repression, almost with tears. Same with mum, remembering her village fetes being crashed by Poles from the nearby town disrupting it, their produce being stolen just as it was ready to harvest, etc. etc., Add in what happened on the Soviet Union side of the border and recent events then there's a historic legacy running up to the present day.

But I'm not in any way thinking because of this Ukraine should be vengeful towards its minorities and treat them as 2nd class citizens. But I do think it has the right to look after its interests, which includes revising its education system part of which they see as ensuring children going through it learning the state language.


Ukraine has in the past shown a spectacular level of incompetence when it comes to politics,
Completely agree. Full of self serving corrupt money grabbers as well as incompetents.

and we're seeing another example of it here.
Possibly. It seems that leaders of some neighbouring countries are using this to stir things up for their own interests. Hungary being one...........

Moscow themselves could not devise a policy more likely to sow discord and rebellion in the eastern regions of Ukraine than the one which Kiev have come up with.
............and Moscow the other.

But how far does a country go to 'appease' powerful neighbours and tiptoe around their sensitivities before it eviscerates whatever you try to do to the point of being meaningless.

I'm not unaware of how these reforms are being perceived, and it may not be perfect, but Kyiv saw the need for it.
 
@KGB_resident it is answer on your suspicious - I'm clever and educated, and there are no "clever and educated" Ukrainians, becouse they became Russians.
@terminal - there are one more difference between Ukraine and Canada - both French and English are languages of culture. French culture is higher, English one is wider. Ukrainian is the tongue of villagers. Writers, living in Ukraine usually write in Russian. And now there are no translations of fiction books in Ukrainian (it was in Soviet times).
@scalieback , can you recommend any "Reversed Pigmalion" type film? Something about high-rank British lady, that, becouse of her own will, became law-cost whore somewhere in the East-End and learn Cockney dialect?
You've just illustrated the reason why education reforms are needed. Ha ha.
 
@KGB_resident it is answer on your suspicious - I'm clever and educated, and there are no "clever and educated" Ukrainians, becouse they became Russians.
Please write 'because' instead of 'becouse' because it rather points to inssufficient level of education.
I disagree, Ukrainian language, Ukrainian songs, literature are not that primitive as you suggest.
 
You're right. It does look and could be punitive. Not saying it isn't but without having yet found anything saying it is I'll go with part of the reason being de-russification of elements of the education system and ensuring minorities are able to speak Ukrainian and don't become socially isolated enclaves.

Probably not very well with many but may be accepted by a proportion, and no I don't know what these may be. If I've understood the changes correctly then initial schooling will still remain in the various ethnic languages until they get older. Some may be happy enough with this, but I guess not all.

And they've all come to that accommodation in varying ways. I would have hoped that Kyiv sought advice and consulted on how to go about this and from what I've seen they have. How well they have done this I don't know and maybe they may carry out a review of the roll out which remains to be seen.

Believe me I do understand. I'm not fully au fait with the history but I'm aware of it and the Quebecois sense of self and desire to uphold their language and traditions. I'm aware of the separatist and sovereignty sentiments, De Gaulle's stirring it up with vive Quebec libre, , (I had a taste of it myself in Quebec city being told off for not speaking French when I politely asked a lady to pass by her in what was a tight space in a shop. I later heard her explaining in English to another tourist the importance of French to them. And loved Quebec but I think I preferred Montreal out of the two) And yes maybe I didn't express it too well with my comments on language survival.

Of course. My parents experienced this first hand, primarily between the wars when they became part of Poland when the Ukrainian language was repressed and they were treated as second class citizens. I remember my dad many years ago emotionally recalling the repression, almost with tears. Same with mum, remembering her village fetes being crashed by Poles from the nearby town disrupting it, their produce being stolen just as it was ready to harvest, etc. etc., Add in what happened on the Soviet Union side of the border and recent events then there's a historic legacy running up to the present day.

But I'm not in any way thinking because of this Ukraine should be vengeful towards its minorities and treat them as 2nd class citizens. But I do think it has the right to look after its interests, which includes revising its education system part of which they see as ensuring children going through it learning the state language.

Completely agree. Full of self serving corrupt money grabbers as well as incompetents.


Possibly. It seems that leaders of some neighbouring countries are using this to stir things up for their own interests. Hungary being one...........

............and Moscow the other.

But how far does a country go to 'appease' powerful neighbours and tiptoe around their sensitivities before it eviscerates whatever you try to do to the point of being meaningless.

I'm not unaware of how these reforms are being perceived, and it may not be perfect, but Kyiv saw the need for it.
They're sending the legislation to the European Council which may (or may not) alleviate some concerns in some quarters
 

YarS

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Please write 'because' instead of 'becouse' because it rather points to inssufficient level of education.
Thanks. I'll try be more accurate.

I disagree, Ukrainian language, Ukrainian songs, literature are not that primitive as you suggest.
Really? Ukrainian songs are funny, I like them, as many other ethnic's music. But you should understand difference between "Ti j mene pidmanula, Ti j mène pidvela" or "Nese Galya wodu" and, for example, Chaikovskiy's "Swan's Lake".
How many modern Ukrainian (who write in Ukrainian tongue) Sci-Fi writers can you demonstrate? Show me photo with bookshelves full of fiction books translated in Ukrainian (not of Soviet times).
"Padu li ya drutch'kom protknutiy?!" Any film, translated in Ukrainian became a comedy, you know.
Educated part of Ukrainian society preffer to write and read in Russian, and uneducated - preffer to watch Russian films and listen Russian songs.
That's why Banderlogs need quotas on Radio and TV - in the fairly free market Ukrainian will be language of in-family usage in the far villages.
 

YarS

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You've just illustrated the reason why education reforms are needed. Ha ha.
Man, do you really think, that derussification of education and whole society will make Ukrainian society more educated and clever? I think, you are wrong.
David Mark Weber wrote some funny Sci-Fi books, there are some mentions about "true Ukrainian nationalists", started "Last War" on the Earth and created "Kosheys" (kind of GMO-supersoldiers)
From his point of view, and I agree with him, "True Ukrainian nationalism should be, at least pan-slavic".
Modern Banderlogs are fighting to became second-sort citizens in EU, and may be, later made a second Volin'.
 

YarS

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And I think, that in democratic society parents can choose by themselves on what language their children should be educated, what books should they read, and what films they should watch.
 
Let's ask @terminal how many Ukrainian schools are in Canada (with Ukrainian as a language of teaching). As I understand - zero. According to this source
Украинские школы Канады восточного обряда
there are 4 Ukrainian Catholic schools in Toronto but it means only that pupils learn Ukrainian language (spend half an hour on it daily).
The following answer has turned out to be quite lengthy, but I don't see how to shorten it any more without losing some essential detail. I will however use this short history to illustrate what I think to be some important conclusions at the end.

The history of Ukrainian schools in Canada is complex. First we must recognise that when large numbers of Ukrainian settlers came to Canada in the 1890s, they were not seen as "Ukrainian". This was apparently not recognised as a "nation" at that time. Instead they are variously referred to as "Gallicians" or "Ruthenians". Most of the early settlers came from parts of what are now western Ukraine, but at the time were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. These areas only became part of "Ukraine" after WWII when the Soviet Union forcibly annexed them to Ukraine.

Gallicia and Bukovina were the poorest parts of Europe during the 19th century, and very large numbers of people there died in frequent famines (there are a number of accounts of people there resorting to cannibalism to survive at times). As a result of the social conditions there, it was relatively easy to get large numbers of people who were willing to come as settlers to what where at the time remote and inhospitable parts of the Canadian prairies.

When these people came, they were settled in "block settlements". These were large contiguous areas where people from the same area were settled together. Thus while Ukrainians were a minority of the settlers in the prairies, they would form the overwhelming majority of people within the areas where they lived. At first, education in the three prairie provinces was not mandatory. However, as ministries of education were established and education became compulsory, schools were set up. Education levels of Ukrainians immigrants were low to non-existent, but they quickly saw education for their children as a way to promote the preservation of their language and culture. Policy on this varied from province to province, but generally they were permitted to teach part of the curriculum in Ukrainian and the rest in English.

I should add at this point that the immigration of large numbers of Ruthenians/Gallicians was not universally popular in Canada. Many people of British origin in the western provinces saw them as an alien people who were being brought in only to serve the interests of big business and the federal government. Thus there was some agitation to stop permitting Ukrainian language education.

In addition, Ukrainian run schools were many times a source of problems due to political conflicts within the Ukrainian community itself. There were two basic groups - the Catholics and the Orthodox. Some of the more radical or nationalistic Ukrainian Catholic teachers would use their position to propagandise against the Orthodox population and preach hatred against them. I haven't read of any cases of the opposite (Orthodox teachers propagandising against Catholics), but that may be because the Orthodox were the minority. The explanation that I've seen for this situation is that the Catholics were seen as associated with Austria-Hungary, while the Orthodox were seen as associated with the Russian Empire. Austria-Hungary supposedly subjected their population to political indoctrination against anything associated with Russia in an attempt to create a foreign bogeyman in an effort to hold their increasingly creaky empire together, and these immigrants brought their attitudes with them. Whatever the origin, education ministry inspectors were at times having to come in and deal with these conflicts and get rid of some of the more troublesome teachers. However, this and other problems played to the non-Ukrainian citizen concerns about Ukrainians being an alien population.

During WWI the Ruthenians/Gallicians were seen as an enemy population, as Canada was at war with Austria-Hungary and many of these immigrants had not sought to gain citizenship. Some of them were interned as enemy populations, and the Ukrainian language schools were shut down.

Some years later, Ukrainian language education was permitted again, but only as an extra subject. The normal curriculum was taught entirely in English (French language education never had any association with Ukrainians, so that doesn't enter into this story at any point). This is where things stand today.

I mentioned earlier the "block settlements". Within their areas, Ukrainians could live their daily lives mainly, or possibly entirely, using Ukrainian. However after WWII larger social and economic trends were to result in huge changes in society. Up to that point, Ukrainians in Canada lived mainly as farmers. After WWII farming became mechanised, and industry, forestry, and mining expanded hugely. The result was that the majority of the Ukrainians in Canada moved away from their farms to move to the cities, mines, and forestry complexes. There they found themselves a minority dispersed within a larger community of other Canadians, including the large numbers of immigrants arriving from other parts of Europe. As a result of this the use of the Ukrainian language fell into rapid decline. Some parents still arrange for their children to be taught Ukrainian language and culture as extra subjects, but the language has no real practical use in daily life.

In more recent times there has been renewed immigration from Ukraine. However, unlike the earlier immigration, this has come from all parts of Ukraine rather than from one area. I have worked with several (very good) engineers from Ukraine. Interestingly when I asked them where they were from, they told me they were "Russian". When I asked what part of Russia they were from, they said they were from eastern Ukraine. While they may have been citizens of Ukraine, they didn't see themselves as being "Ukrainian".

While Canada may have the third largest Ukrainian population after Ukraine and Russia, there is a very important point to realise about them which distinguishes them from francophone Canadians. In Canada, the francophone population are far more numerous, and very importantly, they are the majority population in large contiguous areas of Quebec and adjacent provinces. Thus they can live their daily lives entirely in their own language and culture and their political influence is impossible to ignore.

Ukrainian-Canadians however are a much smaller group and largely dispersed outside of their original settlement areas after WWII. Thus their language and culture here are kept alive as more or less a "hobby" by those who are interested, rather than maintained as a living culture.

In Ukraine itself, I see the Hungarian and other minor languages as probably being in the same situation there as Ukrainians are in Canada. They are a small community, who through ongoing economic and social change will inevitably decline and be assimilated into the larger Ukrainian society. They will probably maintain some aspects of their language and culture as part of their private lives, but it will largely cease to exist outside of that.

One thing that may prevent that trend is if Ukraine were to join the EU. In that case, the Hungarians (and others) will use the open border to associate with their linguistic fellows in the adjacent countries, and effectively become part of those societies instead of the Ukrainian state to which they would nominally belong.

The Russian speaking population on the other hand is in a position similar to that of the francophone population of Canada. They are a large community forming a dominant part of the population within certain geographic areas. They are numerous enough to maintain a living language and culture in daily public life. They are already largely urbanised, so economic trends won't cause them to disperse, except to go to other Russian speaking cities in Ukraine nearby.

Trying to force them to erase their language, culture, and heritage through compulsion by the state would almost certainly meet with major resistance and only alienate them further from that state.

Hence, I would say that attempting to equate the situation of the Hungarian versus the Russian language in Ukraine is seriously misguided and counter-productive if the objective is to maintain the unity of Ukraine.
 
In Ukraine itself, I see the Hungarian and other minor languages as probably being in the same situation there as Ukrainians are in Canada. They are a small community, who through ongoing economic and social change will inevitably decline and be assimilated into the larger Ukrainian society.
The Hungarians in Ukraine (about 200 thousands) live mostly in Transcarpathia, just along Hungarian border. Many have Hungarian passports.Their main town is Beregovo (I visited it, though long ago). As a rule local Hungarians speak Russian but Ukrainian language is in fact useless. Local Ukrainians use their dialect (or Rusin language) that is too distant from standard Ukrainian. Transcarpathian Hungarians will not be assimilated anytime soon. They will use Hungarian language at home and inside their communities. They feel and will feel themsleves as a part of Hungarian cultural space. For them Hungarian schools are something essential and Hungarian government will fircely defend their right for Hungarian schools. It is not a big problem for Kiev authorities. They would allow Hungarian (and also Polish, Romanian) schools easily but ... as a result they would have to allow Russian schools. Abolition of education in Russian is the main objective of Ukrainian ruling circles.
 
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YarS

On ROPS
On ROPs
May be Banderlogs have a specific understanding of European way.
But may be, they are just follow orders of their German and American masters.
 

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