How will the Ukraine war end?

How will the Ukraine war end?

  • Rebels win,Eastern Ukraine goes independent

    Votes: 150 40.0%
  • Putin invades Kiev, NATO doesn't move

    Votes: 118 31.5%
  • Putin invades Kiev, NATO fights Russia

    Votes: 27 7.2%
  • Rebels lose, Ukraine stays united

    Votes: 80 21.3%

  • Total voters
    375

Btw, there is a monastery in Svyatogorsk that is near to the front line. The Ukrainian forces placed there artillery systems but alas the Russian side is unable to shell Ukrainian position because of cultural importance of the Monastery.




During the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, the monastery provided shelter to civilian refugees. On 12 March 2022, it was damaged by a Russian airstrike on the nearby bridge across the Donets, at which time about 520 refugees were present in the monastery. The blast from the explosion damaged windows and doors of the monastery buildings, and several people were injured from the glass shards of the shattered windows.[3] On 4 May, repeated shelling wounded 7 people.[4] Later in May, Russian shelling destroyed St. George's Skete and damaged St. John of Shanghai Skete of the Lavra.[5][6][7]

Did you pick the wrong example by linking to details of your attacks on the place ?

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Let me think …… are your troops not destroying Ukraines heritage or is it that refugees don’t shoot back but artillery does?
 

Slime

LE
In war time pupils don't attend schools and the school building might be used and are being used for military purposes. The same is applicable to theatres, cultural centers, shopping malls.
During war destruction of objects used by enemy saves lives of own soldiers. and their lives are more important than abstract speculations related to imaginary protection of cultural heritage when we speak about ordinary unremarkable buildings.
Btw, there is a monastery in Svyatogorsk that is near to the front line. The Ukrainian forces placed there artillery systems but alas the Russian side is unable to shell Ukrainian position because of cultural importance of the Monastery.
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See my bold about the first seven words in your post.

Stop telling lies!
It’s unlikely you are stupid enough to believe those first seven words, so stop telling lies.

If however you are that stupid, stop posting your own fantasies as though they are facts.

No need to give you a longer reply if you aren’t decent enough to want an honest or serious debate.
 

Slime

LE
With regard to KGB’s statement that children don’t attend schools in wartime, I have to say imho that is easily the most ludicrously stupid statement I have ever seen him type!

It far surpasses his rats in a dungeon comment or fake satellite photo by a country mile.
 
They may not have windows, electricity or textbooks yet, but lessons in this village east of Kyiv have been back under way for two weeks now, after a major cleanup operation following the departure of the Russian army.

Novyi Bykiv was one of a series of settlements occupied by the Russian army for a month as part of Vladimir Putin’s failed drive towards the capital from three directions. For a month the residents lived in terror, with summary executions and widespread looting part of life.

The school was the main Russian base in the village, and when the Guardian visited just after the Russian departure there were clothes, food and broken glass strewn across the floors, graffiti sprayed on the walls and messages left by the Russians on the blackboards.../

/ The cleanup process was long, tiring and unpleasant. One of the downstairs rooms at the school had been used as a hybrid toilet and barbers, and was littered with clumps of hair and piles of faeces. Everywhere there was shattered glass and other debris. Someone found a hand grenade in the basement.../

/ The war has disrupted schooling across Ukraine, even in the relatively safe western part of the country. More than 200 schools have been fully destroyed and hundreds more damaged, according to Ukraine’s education ombudsman Sergii Gorbachov. Even in the west, in schools with no bomb shelter the lessons have had to go online.
Source: Children back in school after cleanup in traumatised Ukrainian village - Guardian

Messy, indisciplined campers.

Human Rights Watch have urged both sides in the conflict to stop using schools for military purposes.
 
In war time pupils don't attend schools and the school building might be used and are being used for military purposes. The same is applicable to theatres, cultural centers, shopping malls.
During war destruction of objects used by enemy saves lives of own soldiers. and their lives are more important than abstract speculations related to imaginary protection of cultural heritage when we speak about ordinary unremarkable buildings.
Btw, there is a monastery in Svyatogorsk that is near to the front line. The Ukrainian forces placed there artillery systems but alas the Russian side is unable to shell Ukrainian position because of cultural importance of the Monastery.
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Soooo glad that IP search was successful…

Not IF. WHEN.

Sleep tight now…
 
Just another Russian crimes story. Not new crimes mercifully, just the stories of bereaved and raped civilians in the Kyiv region, and footage of police investigations and an interview with a war crimes prosecutor. Towards the end of the video, a rape victim whose husband was shot dead trying to protect her from "Chechens", tells how she was rescued by Russian "intelligence soldiers", but a neighbor had her throat slit.
24 May 2022 Following the retreat of Russian forces from near the Ukrainian capital Kyiv, Euronews' Valerie Gauriat travels to the region to look into the alleged war crimes by Russian troops against the civilian population.
 

Snowy.

On ROPS
On ROPs
Captured Azov battalion tattoos...

Do you nazi see what I see?.... ;)

 
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"Two alleged Wagner Group fighters from Belarus have been accused of murdering civilians near Kyiv, making them the first international mercenaries to face war crimes charges in Ukraine.

Ukrainian prosecutors late on Tuesday released the names and photographs of eight men wanted for alleged war crimes – including murder and torture – in the village of Motyzhyn. Several are believed to have fought in Syria." Source:
 
The Ukrainian Prosecutor General Iryna Venediktova is spending two days in the UK for ministerial and official meetings to discuss what more the UK can do to support her work to bring war criminals to justice.
 
Two captured Russian soldiers have now pleaded guilty in a Ukrainian court to "violation of the laws of war" as part of an artillery unit that fired at targets in the Kharkiv region from the Belgorod region in Russia.

The two soldiers are described as a gunner and a driver. Even junior artillery "numbers" contribute to the act of firing the guns. But it would be interesting to know what evidence there is in this case of the accused's knowledge of the nature, or likely nature, of the targets their unit was firing at.

 
Two captured Russian soldiers have now pleaded guilty in a Ukrainian court to "violation of the laws of war" as part of an artillery unit that fired at targets in the Kharkiv region from the Belgorod region in Russia.

The two soldiers are described as a gunner and a driver. Even junior artillery "numbers" contribute to the act of firing the guns. But it would be interesting to know what evidence there is in this case of the accused's knowledge of the nature, or likely nature, of the targets their unit was firing at.

One possible argument for the guilt of the two artillerymen is that it appears their unit was firing from Russia into NE Ukraine early in the conflict, at which time there was no prior conflict as in the Donbas, therefore civilian public buildings and residences being fired at were almost certain to be in use and occupied for their original civilian purpose. (Pure speculation on my part.)
 
The Ukrainian Prosecutor General Iryna Venediktova is spending two days in the UK for ministerial and official meetings to discuss what more the UK can do to support her work to bring war criminals to justice.
Will she also be discussing the little bit of a backlog building up?
 
Will she also be discussing the little bit of a backlog building up?
A backlog much expanded in recent weeks, mainly by Russia, but two wrongs don't make a right.
 
A backlog much expanded in recent weeks, mainly by Russia, but two wrongs don't make a right.
A backlog that they had 8 years to deal with but didn't.

In practical terms, a backlog that had it been dealt with immediately would have cut the legs out from under the separatists' case and potentially have forestalled this whole mess.

In wider terms, a backlog that highlights to the rest of the world how easy it is to get away with human rights abuses and war crimes if you have sufficiently powerful friends.

Two wrongs don't make a right - in this case, UKR committing and refusing to investigate these crimes; and the western world's refusal to act against them even at the time. That's not right.
 
A backlog that they had 8 years to deal with but didn't.

In practical terms, a backlog that had it been dealt with immediately would have cut the legs out from under the separatists' case and potentially have forestalled this whole mess.

In wider terms, a backlog that highlights to the rest of the world how easy it is to get away with human rights abuses and war crimes if you have sufficiently powerful friends.

Two wrongs don't make a right - in this case, UKR committing and refusing to investigate these crimes; and the western world's refusal to act against them even at the time. That's not right.
I rather doubt that prompt Ukraine action to investigate and if proved in court, punish the use of cluster munitions on their own side would have forestalled Putin's plans. It would still be better if they had taken action, I agree.

It has to be said, too, that there are far more HRW reports about potentially criminal Russian use of criminal munitions in Ukraine than the one you linked to about Ukrainian actions back then.

Two wrongs still don't make a right. I'm sure I agree with you on much of this. But for all the mistakes which have happened, I don't share the view that whatever our country does in international affairs is probably wrong.
 
I rather doubt that prompt Ukraine action to investigate and if proved in court, punish the use of cluster munitions on their own side would have forestalled Putin's plans.
His plans were predicated on the existence of a discontented ethnic-Russian population in Ukraine. Kyiv could have defused that discontent and denied Moscow it's use by holding the perpetrators of these numerous crimes swiftly to account.

Or by just not brassing up their restive civvies in the first place. We're supposed to be against that, right?


It has to be said, too, that there are far more HRW reports about potentially criminal Russian use of criminal munitions in Ukraine than the one you linked to.
Indeed. There are also significantly more investigations and significantly less e-fellation of the perpetrators when they're Russian.

Can you see how that just might have looked to an ethnic Russian looking at the corpses of that family wiped out in the Sumy marketplace attack? Or how it might have influenced their choice to take up arms?
But for all the mistakes which have happened, I don't share the view that whatever our country does in international affairs is probably wrong.
I don't hold that view. I hold the view that playing favourites with supposed principle makes us wrong and if I'm frequently critical on those grounds then that's a factor of how often we do it.
 
It is a tightrope, I get the thing with NATO not wanting to be involved, however NATO countries have sent that much gear and now I believe are planning on enforcing the no fly zone. Vlad has nothing to lose, he has lost all respect in world politics, is knocking on a bit now so has no future. Remember also he is old school Russia and this is how this all kicked off in the first place.
It's all well and good us sitting here in the west thinking will he or won't he, he has nothing to lose personally.
Personally not being too far from RAF Waddington I am a bit concerned, but at least I can turn my heating off for a bit....
Like I said before ages ago "Top KGB man, President!" many people nowadays are naive to some of the stuff that went on, well into the nineties with Op Rebecca etc.
It is all a bit wobbly still in my opinion, people chucking war trial claims up to the Hague from both sides.
I don't see any of it ending well if I am honest. Sad but true.
 
... NATO countries ... are planning on enforcing the no fly zone.
To impose the no fly zone NATO fighter jets should be sent to Ukraine and at least some of them would be downed by Russian advanced AD systems from Belarus and from Russian territory including Crimea. It means that NATO would have to hit positions of AD systems in Belarus and Russia. No doubt it would be retaliated by strikes inside NATO countries including (why not?) RAF Waddington site. Mistakes is such a business are possible, including collateral damage and other unfortunate side effects.
So if some believe that NATO countries are planning the no fly zone in Ukraine then they don't realise that Moscow has too long arms and arms quite capable to make their life not so comfortable as they like.
There are realities on the ground and they should be taken into account.

Meanwhile Russian advance in Donbass is quite successful.
More now on the news we reported earlier on the fall of the city of Lyman in Ukraine's eastern Donetsk region.
Oleksiy Arestovych, adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, appears to have also confirmed that Russian-backed separatists have control of the city.
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"According to unverified data, we lost the town of Lyman," Arestovych said in a video, adding that the attack had been well organised.
"This shows, in principle, the increased level of operational management and tactical skills of the Russian army," he added.
Big enough key city of Severodonetsk has to fall within days. And according to the separatists sources all officers to begin with majors abandoned the city.
 
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