How will the Ukraine war end?

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Skylog, Mar 6, 2015.

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  1. Rebels win,Eastern Ukraine goes independent

    83 vote(s)
  2. Putin invades Kiev, NATO doesn't move

    45 vote(s)
  3. Putin invades Kiev, NATO fights Russia

    10 vote(s)
  4. Rebels lose, Ukraine stays united

    27 vote(s)
  1. YarS

    YarS On ROPs

    "Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness." - it is one of the ways.

    Russian guns didn't interfere with elections. They just made safety. Choice was absolutely free.

    Millions were migrated. Many of them preffer to migrate with their property and their lands.

    We'll see.

    Of course there are terrorist threat. Any mass even is a potential target for terrorist's attack. There are instructions how to prevent causalities from cold, from fire, from terrorists, from nuclear blast, chemical weapons, car or drone attack, etc... "taking precautions to ensure as much as possible nothing happens" is nothing. To prevent causalities you have to have short and clear instructions. To make instructions you need to understand the threats.
    Is it a kind of British humour?
    I mean "seriose difference". For example, did they have difference in the resistance to damaging factors of nuclear explosion?

    Ha! They had changed their side so many times...
    You should watch on your problems first.
  2. That's okay then. We'll turn into honey from a lion's carcass ;-)
    Not when you held referendums at the end of the barrel of an AK
    After being forcibly made to live there?
    Indeed. More Roubles and lives down the drain.
    So there is a terrorist threat then?
    Nope, just using winter as you did for NATO
    I've not been in a nuke explosion, so I can't comment. I doubt you have either.
    And right now they want nothing to do with you for obvious reasons.
    Pot DE Kettle ZBZ 5 K
  3. And it could be spreading. Kazakhstan is changing its name, apparently, along with switching from Cyrillic to the Latin script to decrease the influence of Russia:

    This central Asian country is changing its name to 'Qazaqstan'
    • Like Like x 1
  4. They're not really changing their name. It's the same name with a different transliteration. It's also a spelling that is unfortunately less obvious to pronounce for an English speaker. The official name of the country will be "Qazaqstan Respy’blikasy". The apostrophe is significant, and I'll get to that later.

    According to the story, their current alphabet is in the Cyrillic family, but it's not the same Cyrillic alphabet that is used in Russia. The Kazakh alphabet has 42 letters, which is a lot more than the Russians use.

    And this part of the story makes absolutely no sense whatsoever:
    Kazakhstan is the Latin equivalent to however they spell it now in the Kazakh Cyrillic alphabet. Qazaqstan is how they intend to spell it in the Kazakh Latin alphabet, which by the way is not really the same as the Latin alphabet used to spell English. They are apparently going to add apostrophes as accents to some Latin letters to indicate different sounds, giving them a total of 32 letters (I'm not sure if these count as graphemes or digraphs, so I'll just call them "letters" for simplicity). Some of the ones we are familiar with may also be pronounced differently than the way we do.

    The history of alphabets used in Kazakhstan as given in the story is interesting but may be misleading due to being over simplified. There's a Wikipedia article on the Kazakh alphabets, and that gives quite a different and more complex history. A Cyrillic based Kazakh alphabet was first introduced in the 19th century as part of the more widespread introduction of a secular education system. What happened in the 1940s was some sort of update or change to it (I can't find the details of that however).

    The Soviet Latin alphabet mentioned in the news story was the "Uniform Turkic Alphabet" which was developed in the Soviet Union and intended to cover all Turkic languages, of which there are a number in Central Asia and Russia. It's not quite the same as the Latin alphabet that we use in English as it has extra letters (32 in all). It's not clear just how much the Uniform Turkic Alphabet was actually used in the 1930s.

    So it looks like they had been using the Arabic alphabet, then under the Russian Empire switched to a Cyrillic based alphabet, then under the early Soviets switched to an extended Latin based alphabet, then switched back to extended Cyrillic, and now are switching to a different form of extended Latin alphabet.

    Here's the news from Kazakhstan: Kazakhstan to switch to Latin alphabet by 2025 - The Astana Times

    That isn't the same Latin alphabet as was used before if I understand this article correctly: Common Turkic Alphabet - Wikipedia I don't know if it's the same as used by anyone else either.

    As for the motivation for switching, there seems to be several. Officially the reason is that their current alphabet isn't used by anyone other than Kazakhs (remember that Kazakh Cyrillic is not the same as Russian Cyrillic), so getting things like computer keyboards, fonts, and other such things for a minor language is not easy.

    The news story from Kazakhstan offers this rather interesting tit bit which may suggest an ulterior motive for the change:
    Ah yes, the dream of every absolute dictator. All books, official documents, and other publications relating to politics or culture must be re-written in a new alphabet. Perhaps the glorious leader will find the newly edited and re-written versions more to his liking than the existing ones.

    I can foresee the project not going well. The existing population won't know how to spell or read anything in the new alphabet and a lot of them will never learn it. Existing books, newspapers, signs, labels, packaging, forms, web pages, software, computer keyboards, etc., etc., will all be in the Kazakh or Russian Cyrillic alphabets. A large section of the population speak Russian, and they'll keep on using the Russian Cyrillic alphabet in their daily lives because the main usage of their language exists outside Kazakhstan.

    The Guardian also has this interesting bit: Alphabet soup as Kazakh leader orders switch from Cyrillic to Latin letters
    Kazakh may be the official language, but only 62% of the population is fluent in it (that's roughly the percentage of ethnic Kazakhs). Meanwhile, 85% are fluent in Russian. Large chunks of the country are predominantly Russian speaking.

    I won't be surprised if the project gets abandoned.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
  5. YarS

    YarS On ROPs

  6. YarS

    YarS On ROPs

    @terminal , IMHO, changing of alphabet is not a way for decreasing Russian influence, but a way to increasing Kazaks influence in the Turkish-speaking world. Some kind of pro-Eurasian panturkism.
  7. So by definition they are seeking to pursue a path that would lessen Russian influence my little gopnik.

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  8. The result of the poll shows how effective is Putin's agitprop machine.
    Official Kremlin's position is - "wearenotapartoftheconflict". So 37% of the polled just blindly agreed with this agitprop mantra. But Putin's mass media are so openly pro-separatist that another 41% understands Putin's agitprop in another way - Moscow should support Danbass separatists.
  9. YarS

    YarS On ROPs

    Oh, my little stupid friend.... When UK seeking a path to increase her influence in Europe, does it mean, that they are seeking ways to lessen Septic influence in UK?
    No. UK is a part of English-speaking space (controlled by Yanks) and simultaneously - is a part of Europe, that allow them be a conductors of US influence.
    So is Qazaqstan - they are part of Russian speaking space and Turkish-speaking space simultaneously. They are clever guys and they have no Russophobia.
  10. Oh my stupid little gopnik. Firstly I am not your friend. Secondly you are trying to compare apples and oranges which is always a mistake
    Keep trying to fool yourself that Russia isn’t the billy no-mates of the world. It provides us with some amusement.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  11. YarS

    YarS On ROPs

    My little grunting friend. You are mistaken "window in the future" and "oven door" in which you a looking with such hopeful eyes.
    You can not recognise irony even it will be put on your skin.
    "Showel" for @scalieback

    It is much better to be "Billy no-mates" than to be body of the dead lion, attractive as honey for the variouse insects.
  12. This isn't resulting in a pan-Turk alphabet though. The new Kazakh will be different from the one used in Turkey, which in turn is different from the one used in Azerbaijan, which is different from the one used in Uzbekistan, etc.

    It's all very well to say that they're all "based on" Latin, but they have added different letters to represent different sounds. Someone in Kazakhstan won't be able to type Turkish on a Kazakhstan computer keyboard, because the letters won't be there.

    Kazakh is a minor language. Even in Kazakhstan, significantly more people speak Russian than speak Kazakh. The Kazakh Cyrillic alphabet is not the same as the Russian Cyrillic alphabet. The new Kazakh Latin alphabet is not the same as the older Soviet Turkic Latin alphabet (the latter would have made more sense from a Pan-Turkic standpoint).

    However, you should be able to type using the new Kazakh alphabet on a basic Latin keyboard without extensions by using letter combinations with apostrophes. I suspect the real problem is that now that Kazakhstan has to stand on its own without Soviet support, they find that nobody has any interest in adapting modern technology to work with a unique Kazakh alphabet. As a result, they've cobbled something together which will work without having to be adapted to Kazakhstan's unique requirements and they've done it using the lowest common denominator encoding.

    From this perspective, their explanation makes sense without having to invent any ulterior motives. It doesn't bring them "closer" to any other country or culture, because it doesn't make their own or any other language any more mutually intelligible. It does however let them use off the shelf foreign technology without it having to be "Kazakhified".
  13. Dribbling nonsense as usual. The only growth industry in the empty shell that is the gay commissar’s Russia.

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