How was Logistics done before the RLC

#1
As a true and blue RLC soldier (never known any different) I am interested to see from you old and bold how we did the job before the days of the RLC... With this was it better or worse and how the RLC should change. This could help DRLC change the Corps for the better (don't worry I don't work for him) but was it better as split corps or has it improved the overall service given to the larger army.....

I am sure plenty of you out there have an opinion on this... Was it good or was it bad :? to merge the corps... :)

I hope this hasn't been done before or I may have to shut the f**** up
 
#3
PAF break review

edited to add, thousands and thousands of 3511k's.

Knockers and eager beavers

SK
 
#4
The Waggoners probably asked the same question re the RASC & the RASC re the RCT.
 
#5
The formation of RLC did not IMHO deal with the following critical issues..

1. RCT as a transport corps was fundamentaly generalist, made up from large numbers of low rank, semi skilled soldiers. The NCOs and Officers were mainly administrative and regimental with the level of technical specialist knowledge at the SNCO level. RAOC as a supply corps was broad, but specialised. The corps was made up from a large number of "tribes" from staff clerks to butchers, all of which had long experience in providing this specialist support in thier niche areas. RAOC specialised at both at SNCO and officer leve,l with the officer corps having international level expertise in some areas. The effect of this was that there was less emphasis on regimental activies in RAOC as field force units tended to be smaller ( E.g. RCT operated as Regiments whereas RAOC operated as independent companies). At the merger the RCT, being more politically cohesive, tended to dominate the oganisation, and the interests of the generalists were allowed to dominate the need for specialists. This, IMHO has had a serious effect on the quality of the log support.

2. RAOC had significant autonomous control over much of what is now DSDA, ran the base depots and installations and had control over much of the equipment management and procurement activities. The mechanism that was used to shrink this function was to civilianise swathes of these functions by simply bowler hatting the current incumbents. Ths worked fine for the first few years, as the system worked pretty much as it did before, however over time the ex-mil have been replaced by civil servants (with no experience..) and are frankly pretty cr@p, despite the fact they are trying to do their best. The waste is eye watering in some cases...

3. The teeth v tail fight, which has always gone on, became seriously unbalanced since the 80's because of loggie in-fighting. The representation of G4 in the staff system got trashed with the loggie star count seriously losing out in the run down.. My best example of this is the physical distance between the G1/G4 desks and the G3/G4 ones over the years... In the 1970s these were in the same room. In the 80s they were in adjoining tents. In the 90s they were in separate tents, but in the same factory. In Iraq they were in separate camps. In Afghan they were in separate provinces.. (some say they are actually in different countries..). I still say that tactics win battles, but logistics wins (or loses) wars...
 
#6
Lets take an Armd Div a la BAOR.

Each Brigade had an Ordnance Coy (and before the Coy, which was introduced in the '80's it had an Ordnance Field Park which was an Independent command). Their role was to hold 30 days fast moving MT and Tech spares on wheels

The Ord Coy OC answered to the Div Ord Bn CO, who in turn answered to the DCOS G1/G4 at Div HQ. The OFP OC answered to the Assistant Director of Ordnance Services (ADOS) at Div HQ.

Engines and Major Assemblies, Small arms etc etc came from the 1 (BR) Corps Stores Company, B vehicles from the Corps Vehicle Company and ammunition and other combat supplies came from the Combat Supplies Bn via its ammunition companies (and before them the Replenishment Park companies)

The the jam stealers fecked it all up :twisted:
 
#7
rickshaw-major said:
Lets take an Armd Div a la BAOR.

Each Brigade had an Ordnance Coy (and before the Coy, which was introduced in the '80's it had an Ordnance Field Park which was an Independent command). Their role was to hold 30 days fast moving MT and Tech spares on wheels

The Ord Coy OC answered to the Div Ord Bn CO, who in turn answered to the DCOS G1/G4 at Div HQ. The OFP OC answered to the Assistant Director of Ordnance Services (ADOS) at Div HQ.

Engines and Major Assemblies, Small arms etc etc came from the 1 (BR) Corps Stores Company, B vehicles from the Corps Vehicle Company and ammunition and other combat supplies came from the Combat Supplies Bn via its ammunition companies (and before them the Replenishment Park companies)

The the jam stealers fecked it all up :twisted:
RM am I to understand that the army Logistics was achieved to a higher standard and better than with a joint service.... was not the aim to amalgamate all Logistics within one organisation removing red tape from individual course. So that the stores and transport elements became part of one group reducing the need to deal with inter corps black tape.
Enabling the individual corps to plan and deliver stores and equipment more efficiantley :?
 
#8
The_Big_Floater said:
So that the stores and transport elements became part of one group reducing the need to deal with inter corps black tape.
I, for one, have not noticed any real reduction in use of this commodity - it's as popular as it ever was, particularly for those little jobs around the house.
 
#9
And do you know that as a young tank gunner I thought all that the RAOC did was produce the bread that we got on FTXs in that wax paper from our SQMS...whch sadly was already past its best by date!
 
#10
trelawney said:
And do you know that as a young tank gunner I thought all that the RAOC did was produce the bread that we got on FTXs in that wax paper from our SQMS...whch sadly was already past its best by date!
Everybody used to blame the bakeries/RAOC for out of date bread but what happened in the majority of units was that the chefs would not put out the fresh stuff (they'd received that day, which for all but the farthest flung units was well before lunchtime as it left the bakery from 0730 hrs onwards) until all the other/older bread had been used up. I was in a unit that binned the old stuff daily so we did well (although the bread on Sundays was best toasted).......the good old days.......
 
#11
whingeingpom said:
trelawney said:
And do you know that as a young tank gunner I thought all that the RAOC did was produce the bread that we got on FTXs in that wax paper from our SQMS...whch sadly was already past its best by date!
Everybody used to blame the bakeries/RAOC for out of date bread but what happened in the majority of units was that the chefs would not put out the fresh stuff (they'd received that day, which for all but the farthest flung units was well before lunchtime as it left the bakery from 0730 hrs onwards) until all the other/older bread had been used up. I was in a unit that binned the old stuff daily so we did well (although the bread on Sundays was best toasted).......the good old days.......
I have an enduring memory of being accosted by an RMP RSM out side the cook house at Sennelager. The Lt. Col in charge of the Sennelager hunt asked me to collect stale bread from the cook house to feed the ducks on one of the lakes. The Master Chef told me when I asked for the Col's stale bread: "Its all stale when it gets here , mate".

The RMP RSM who accosted me outside the cookhouse told me that I was stealing rations to feed ducks and that the bread should be made into nutritious food like bread pudding and stuffing and things.

The boring cu nt.
 
#12
The_Big_Floater said:
rickshaw-major said:
Lets take an Armd Div a la BAOR.

Each Brigade had an Ordnance Coy (and before the Coy, which was introduced in the '80's it had an Ordnance Field Park which was an Independent command). Their role was to hold 30 days fast moving MT and Tech spares on wheels

The Ord Coy OC answered to the Div Ord Bn CO, who in turn answered to the DCOS G1/G4 at Div HQ. The OFP OC answered to the Assistant Director of Ordnance Services (ADOS) at Div HQ.

Engines and Major Assemblies, Small arms etc etc came from the 1 (BR) Corps Stores Company, B vehicles from the Corps Vehicle Company and ammunition and other combat supplies came from the Combat Supplies Bn via its ammunition companies (and before them the Replenishment Park companies)

The the jam stealers fecked it all up :twisted:
RM am I to understand that the army Logistics was achieved to a higher standard and better than with a joint service.... was not the aim to amalgamate all Logistics within one organisation removing red tape from individual course. So that the stores and transport elements became part of one group reducing the need to deal with inter corps black tape.
Enabling the individual corps to plan and deliver stores and equipment more efficiantley :?
Yes. And any changes were made to save money. Don't believe the "leaner and better" bullshit. The highlighted above, if you actually believe it should mean that RE Resources and REME should also be in the RLC and they are not. The paperwork to move stores had not changed that much when I left (1995) and colleagues in the Crabs at Wingco level tell me that the system is now a joke.

And the paperwork to move ammo by road is exactly the same as it is whatever cap badge you have.
 
#13
The system, and the taxpayer, have been screwed in a right royal manner by DSDA. As mentioned in a previous post the amount of remaining service experience is zilch.

The "civilianisation" of this function has resulted in millions of pounds worth of aircraft spares, and doubtless many other types of spare being "lost". Their inability to carry out simple stocktaking tasks to meet manpower control totals has conveniently been swept under the carpet.

Despite non of these statutory tasks being carried out I would bet a pound to a penny that the Chief Exec and his cohorts all received bonuses for achieving their meaningless KPIs.

Bring back the uniforms and save the taxpayer a mint.
 
#14
When I was a sprog,Sappers had water transport,movements,post,rail etc.I was told that we did it better that the present encumbants. ''Ubique''
 
#15
dkh51250 said:
The system, and the taxpayer, have been screwed in a right royal manner by DSDA. As mentioned in a previous post the amount of remaining service experience is zilch.

The "civilianisation" of this function has resulted in millions of pounds worth of aircraft spares, and doubtless many other types of spare being "lost". Their inability to carry out simple stocktaking tasks to meet manpower control totals has conveniently been swept under the carpet.

Despite non of these statutory tasks being carried out I would bet a pound to a penny that the Chief Exec and his cohorts all received bonuses for achieving their meaningless KPIs.

Bring back the uniforms and save the taxpayer a mint.
A basic grasp of the issues surounding DSDA, and its structure and governance, would have enabled you to formulate a much better post.
 
#16
The_Big_Floater said:
RM am I to understand that the army Logistics was achieved to a higher standard and better than with a joint service.... was not the aim to amalgamate all Logistics within one organisation removing red tape from individual course. So that the stores and transport elements became part of one group reducing the need to deal with inter corps black tape.
Enabling the individual corps to plan and deliver stores and equipment more efficiantley :?
Bringing together the three service log support has also been a cluster * because logisitically the three services were very different... Two services (RN & RAF) are primerally about maintianing small quantities of complex kit from fixed bases. The Army is about large scale relatively simple kit anywhere on the planet..

As one would expect, this has resulted in our expensive kit costing more and the cheap stuff being done badly (e.g pay as you starve...)
 
#17
I'd just be interested in how much was spent on signs. Kineton alone went from CAD Ktn to BAD Ktn to DSDA Ktn then ABSTA? haven't a clue what the sign says it is now.

I agree with previous posters that there is too much emphasis on the generalist officer, which IMHO has been detrimental to every ex RAOC trade. Can't say it's been particlularly good for the Chefs and Pioneers either.

But I forget an RLC officer is a manager in todays language. Pity, they used to know something about the jobs their men did. These days if they don't understand it they crawl back into their comfort zones and have block inspections and PT on tour.

And for the PT doubters; if the blokes had been working hard enough there wouldn't be any need for PT. Overmanning in the rear; officers with little better to do than have meetings and dream up new things for their OJAR. Blokes whining about having to work 8 hr days and god forbid 7 days a week grips my sh*t. Not strictly an RLC thing but seems to be populated by that cap badge.

RLC, love it and proud to be a part of it.
 
#18
all I have read on this thread talks about the days post mid 60s when ordnance looked after rations and pol as well, I can still recall when as a young soldier in RAASC we had the transport, and Petrol platoons were part of our corps, as were supply depots, so the RAASC (and the RASC) got all the rations and ammo and pol, and using their own transport took it up to where it was needed by the fighting soldiers. in the Composite Platoon of the Transport company we had bakers, butchers, ammo techs, petroleum operators, and we controlled the whole resupply, 1st line, 2nd line and 3rd line units, to look after all the fighting soldiers.

dont know if it is better having all the old supply stuff with ordnance, but do remember that those who went to Ordnance when we became RACT never seemed happy about the way they were being managed in their career at the time, as the ordnance people let the old RAASC people waste out and a lot of expertise was lost. I have a nominal roll of the RAASC in Japan during the occupation, where they had bakery platoons, butchery units, all to support the occupation forces, and it seemed to work well, as did the supply of troops in the field in SVN when it was all done by the RAASC before we all changed our badge.
 
#19
I don't know if anyone watched Girls on the Frontline a few nights ago but an interesting point was raised by accident.

The RLC Chief complained that someone had f**ked up and delivered enough 10 men Rat packs for a "few months" consisting ONLY of Menu B. This was mentioned by the subject soldiers being filmed reporting that the food was dull and uninteresting, with lads taking one or two mouthfuls at a meal and bining the rest. TThe main food intake was from goodie parcels from home. What footage of the food available suggested that the chief was stuck with pretty much just mince and pasta as his main option.

This looked almost as bad as the Iron rations my Granddad lived in Burma during 1943-1944.

How come rationing in the 21st Century has slipped backwards so much? Where's the Bakery unit? or butchers?
 
#20
stinker said:
I'd just be interested in how much was spent on signs. Kineton alone went from CAD Ktn to BAD Ktn to DSDA Ktn then ABSTA? haven't a clue what the sign says it is now.

I agree with previous posters that there is too much emphasis on the generalist officer, which IMHO has been detrimental to every ex RAOC trade. Can't say it's been particlularly good for the Chefs and Pioneers either.

But I forget an RLC officer is a manager in todays language. Pity, they used to know something about the jobs their men did. These days if they don't understand it they crawl back into their comfort zones and have block inspections and PT on tour.

And for the PT doubters; if the blokes had been working hard enough there wouldn't be any need for PT. Overmanning in the rear; officers with little better to do than have meetings and dream up new things for their OJAR. Blokes whining about having to work 8 hr days and god forbid 7 days a week grips my sh*t. Not strictly an RLC thing but seems to be populated by that cap badge.

RLC, love it and proud to be a part of it.
Ah, The generalist officer or the ex-RCT type with scant reagrd for the workings of the Army Supply system with the exception of tyres and windscreens, both of these gripped my shite.

Requiring your officers have some background knowledge of what their troops are doing might help, but to make it blatantly obvious that they couldn't care less what they did as long as it didn't go Pete-Tong and therefore drop them in it.

I used to get frustrated at the usual crowd of young (RLC) officers on their Tp Comdr's course at the Sch of Log on the final exercise (Ex Timber Truss anyone? :roll: ) just waiting until they got to command a Transport Troop, but talked as if a supply/stores posting was like getting the shitty-end of the stick. I don't know what they were told on the course or what their pre-conceptions were about army materiel, but it seemed all negative and counter-productive to a cohesive corps (This was middle to late 90's where I suspect the top hiarachy of the RLC were ex-troggs)

The one's that did arrive made no effort to understand the complexities of it, and I was once told by one that it didn't interest them, they had no idea what they were doing and couldn't wait to move on. What leadership!! :x
I know I can't tar all the YO with this brush but it certainly was the vast majority.

I left a predominantly ex-RAOC posting (Large Ammunition Depot) to join my first (and last) true RLC unit and it scared the shit out of me how much apathy there was towards supply from both ex-RCT Officer's and SNCO/WO's. I suspect it was probably a good time to be a Sup Spec or Sup Con WO as it gave them a strangely higher status in the regiment and they always had the CO's ear direct.

rickshaw-major said:
And the paperwork to move ammo by road is exactly the same as it is whatever cap badge you have.
The good old Lorry Chit, simple, easy and worked, Just got fucked off writing out hundreds every week.
 

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